Being an Engineer

S1E06 First to file, secrecy, & fast-tracking patents | Tom Galvani

May 13, 2020 Tom Galvani Season 1 Episode 6
Being an Engineer
S1E06 First to file, secrecy, & fast-tracking patents | Tom Galvani
Show Notes Transcript

Tom (Galvani Legal) teaches us how to maximize the likelihood that our designs will be patented, explains the “first to file” principle, and shares insight into what to expect when applying for a new patent.

Pipeline Design & Engineering partners with medical device engineering teams who need turnkey equipment such as cycle test machines, custom test fixtures, or automation equipment but don’t have the bandwidth or resources internally to develop that equipment. You can find us on the web at www.testfixturedesign.com and www.designtheproduct.com 

Aaron Moncur:

Welcome to the being an engineer podcast. Our guest today is Tom Galvani, who operates a law firm in Phoenix where he and his team provide patent, trademark and copyright solutions to help independent inventors, entrepreneurs and growing businesses protect their ideas, inventions, and brands. Tom, welcome to the show. Thanks. Thanks for having me. You bet. Okay, so you actually started your at least your student career as a mechanical engineer, and then transferred into law before actually going into industry as an engineer. Is that accurate?

Tom Galvani:

Yeah, so I was I was an engineering student. I was really more of a systems engineer. But we did study Mechanical, we studied all sorts of mechanical electrical materials and a broad range. And in engineering school, I decided that I didn't want to be an engineer anymore. I had met with a couple former engineers from my school that had gone on to law school and then gone on to the practice of law, and all of them were patent attorneys. And it sounded like an exciting way to continue almost being an engineer without having to do applause transforms all day long.

Aaron Moncur:

Yeah, okay. That's fair. That's fair. What, can you elaborate a little bit more? What was attractive to you about patent law? And maybe what was unattractive to you about practicing engineering? Yeah, so

Tom Galvani:

I, the thing that got me interested in engineering was building I've always been a Lego builder and a designer. And I've always enjoyed building creations and working with my hands. So designing, building, solving problems has always been an interest, probably like most engineers. And so I went to school for that, I got kind of burnt out from the math. And I just got tired of doing detailed detailed math all the time. And for a while, I actually thought about architecture. And so I studied, I studied architecture, I went and did a summer abroad, studying architecture. And I thought that might be a good, a good route. But then I found out about patent law. And it sounded like an exciting way to keep my engineering background still deal deal with engineers still work with people who are inventive and creative. But also sort of pivot to a world where it's a, it's a new challenge all the time. I graduated around the.com bubble just before the bubble burst. And so my school was full of people who are going off and starting companies and doing exciting things and starting for companies and doing exciting things with them. And I didn't want to start a company myself, I wasn't interested in that. But I wanted to be assist in that. And so patent law, and law seemed like the way to do it, and you want to be a patent attorney, you've got to be an attorney. First, I would not want to practice any kind of other law. I don't think if I, if I couldn't do patent and trademark and copyright law, I don't think I would want to be a lawyer, I go back to engineering. So yeah, patent law is just a great way to still work with engineers and be talking that language and still be on the edge of design, but not have to do all the design myself.

Aaron Moncur:

What having been through this process of starting as an engineering student, and then going into law, what suggestions might you give to current engineering students who might be listening to this that if they're thinking about potentially going into patent law, what are some of the I don't know, key indicators? Or if you like, this sort of thing, and you're really good at that sort of thing? What are some of these triggers that students might consider that if they're true, it might make good sense for them to go into patent law?

Tom Galvani:

Yeah, so I took where you would you would look at a business problem, figure out what it was figure out the number of solutions and how to how to carry out those solutions. I took a lot of project management classes I found all those interesting. i i You know, it was really just I got sick of doing detailed math if you're hired, tired of that mix up. Some of my classmates loved it. But if you're tired of that, that's not necessarily doesn't necessarily mean you don't have to abandon engineering, it just means maybe you're not going to be the Research Engineer. Um, no, I would say if you enjoy the high level design, I really our first few classes in engineering and the next sort of our ladder classes and engineering work, designing classes, shop classes, we all made, no, we all got into the shop and worked on the lathe and worked on the drill press, those were fun classes for me, I had a good time with those, if you like, a high level design, I think that's a sign that you know, engineering is great, it's something that you're skilled at is something you have an interest in. But once you, you know, you're boiling down to the sheer strength of a bolt, maybe you're, you've you've lost interest that that's a sign that nobody has a passion for intellectual property law. Nobody knows what intellectual property law is as a high school or college student. But if you have an interest in how businesses work, or how businesses start, and how businesses start and, and gain access to capital, how they make themselves more valuable or more attractive to investing. If you like Shark Tank, I mean, Shark Tank is it's kind of a canned show. But it's it's they're all real. Although edited, they're all real stories of people who add an idea got motivated, did something with it, or at least tried to do something with it. If those kinds of stories excite you. That's that's I mean, that's a that dovetails into into patent laws. So by work with those kinds of people all the time.

Aaron Moncur:

You mentioned that in school, you really enjoyed the classes where you got to design or create or build something. As far as I know, patent attorneys are not spending much time actually designing or building anything. But is there some aspect of that, that creation process that you still feel like you're a part of?

Tom Galvani:

Oh, yeah, absolutely. So as a kid I used to fantasize about, you know, building the impenetrable castle. And that's, I mean, that's kind of what a patent attorney does. You think about the core product or the core idea ever, the inventors presented to you for that might be building a portfolio of patents a fence around an idea and figuring out what's the best way to structure this protection. And there's still just creativity and you've got to be able to talk with the inventor, you still got to be able to be able to have a discussion with the inventor, who may be No, maybe a chief technical officer, but maybe a garage inventor, maybe somebody who's been doing this for 20 years and working on this one part. So you've got to be able to talk that language as well.

Aaron Moncur:

Yeah. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you made the jump to going into business for yourself not too long after graduating, maybe, I don't know, three or four years or something like that. Is that Is that accurate?

Tom Galvani:

Yeah, it was a jump that was forced upon me. Yeah, you bet. Yeah, I, I graduated from law school. And then I clerked at the court of appeals with a judge for about two years. And then I worked, I left that and I went to work for a boutique, which is a small, specialized intellectual property practice here in Phoenix. And then, and then the, the meltdown came, the financial meltdown came in 2008. And I was laid off. And so for a while, I just thought I thought about, you know, 1520 30 different businesses that I could start. Some of them probably reasonable, some pretty crazy. And I kind of just kept coming back to well, I could always attempt to start my own firm. And I started, I did, I started small. And I slowly, very slowly worked, worked my way up to a good practice. So I never really intended to work for myself. I never thought of myself as someone think of myself as an entrepreneur, but I probably fit that definition of somebody who has an idea and goes out and starts starts their own business. But yeah, I took the leap because I was running out of runway that

Aaron Moncur:

that sounds so familiar that story because I feel like my story is almost the same I got laid off during the the recession 2008 2009 thought about a bunch of completely different businesses. eventually went back to the idea I already have so much invested in engineering, why not just try that again. But for myself this time. The really interesting to hear someone else, I mean, almost mirror, that same story. And then you mentioned, I still don't feel like an entrepreneur. It's funny, I felt the same way up until I don't know, a couple, two or three years ago was when I first started feeling like an entrepreneur. I don't know exactly what changed. But it was interesting that, you know, for seven, eight years running my own company, even though like you said, I kind of checked all the boxes. Didn't feel like an entrepreneur. Anyway.

Tom Galvani:

I'm trying to read we discussed before the book, the E Myth.

Aaron Moncur:

I'm not sure if we have, but I am very familiar with that book.

Tom Galvani:

Yeah, I mean, that's, maybe maybe I'm wearing all the hats right now, the engineer or the manager, or the the entrepreneur, the manager or the technician, you may you may only be wearing one of those. So maybe that's, maybe that's why you feel more like the entrepreneur now.

Aaron Moncur:

That could be Yeah, there have been some really delightful changes that pipeline that have allowed me to take a step back and focus more on the business not working in the business so much. That has been really nice. Let's talk about let's talk about patents. What what needs to be true in order to patent an idea?

Tom Galvani:

Oh, well, well, nothing except that the Patent Office gives you the thumbs up. That's That's it. That's sort of something I say lightly. But it's also true that the patent office is the ultimate arbiter. So sometimes clients come in and say, Do you think this is patentable? And I may say, well, let's do a search, we run a search, we find that we think it's patentable. But if you know the patent office doesn't eventually give you the thumbs up. It's it's by definition, not patentable. There's there are a number of requirements for patentability. There are things that are the attorneys or the the Patent Agent, whoever's writing the application is the responsibility of them to adequately describe the invention in enough detail. And then there are things that are sort of inherent in the invention, we say it has to be reduced to practice, which means you're capable of describing it in enough detail that somebody who is skilled in whatever industry or art that it pertains to, would know how to go out and make it and use it. And so that is not a bright line rule that you have to have a prototype. But sometimes it means you need to have a prototype. Sometimes if it's a, an idea that's so simple, you can just scratch it down on a napkin, or just keep it in your brain and convey it to the draft, the drafting attorney or the drafting agent. And there's enough detail right there that they know how to write the application submitted. So there won't be any issues with the patent office. With more complex inventions, you may have to develop a prototype, you need to know what all the parts are and how the parts work. And then oftentimes, you will develop a prototype and find out that your your first idea isn't going to cut it and there has to be a refinement or there have to be several refinements. And so there's value in the prototyping that to say the three main requirements are utility novelty, and non obviousness meant utility. Most things if they're tangible will have utility. Utility just means that the item or the article, or the idea works for its intended purpose. It does something doesn't necessarily have to do it well, but it has to do something. Novelty and non obviousness are two requirements for the question of visit New. This is where a lot of clients get get caught up in vectors think I've come up with an idea and there's nothing else like it. That's sort of the cliched lawn, there's nothing else like it. Nothing else like it is another way of asking is it novel? And all novelty is is a one to one comparison, what is your invention? And is there a single other item, or patent or patent application? Or a journal article or product on Amazon or something that came before you, which is identical to what you've come up with? And that question is usually fairly simple to answer. We can answer with a search, we can answer the patent search. Oftentimes, the inventor has done that themselves. And they come in and say there's nothing like it. That's only half of the question of is it new, though the other half is non obviousness. And well, while novelty is one to one. non obvious is one to many. So you take the idea that you've got as embodied in the patent application, and you look to see are there other elements are there other elements of your invention in one or more pieces of will be called prior art prior are all the things that came before you whether they're articles or whether they're products or whether they're publications or whether they're patent applications. But the patent office, when you file an application will look at your invention and say, Well, we found a reference, it's a patent from 1963. It discloses parts A, B, and C of your invention. And then we found another product from five years ago, and it discloses parts D and E. And then we found another journal article from three years ago, and it discloses parts f and g, we can take all of those individual parts and combine them and build your invention. And when the office does that, your invention is obvious. It's obvious in light of a combination of references. So that's a much more difficult. It's a much more difficult rejection to foresee, both for the attorney and the inventor. But novelty is half the question non obvious is the other half of that. Is it new question? It's not just about, there's nothing else like it.

Aaron Moncur:

That's a really good way of explaining it. I don't think I've heard the novelty is one to one non obvious is one too many explanation before but that really clears it up. Thank you for that. Yeah. Can you talk just really briefly, what is the difference between a design and a utility patent? And why would someone choose one over the other? Yeah, so

Tom Galvani:

Patents protect functional items. Anything again, that does something. utility patent protects the way that a function IDL sorry, functional item works, or is built or structured, what parts it has. The the the design patent protects a functional item, but protects the way it looks. So it's the ornamentation, the first surface treatment, maybe the particular shape. So if you think about sort of a quintessential Coke bottle, glass Coke bottle, we all know what that shape looks like. We can all picture that in our mind, it has an hourglass shape, and it has certain curves. The look that's in your mind would be protected by design patterned while the fact that the coke bottle has a continuous sidewall and a bottom wall, an open mouth, a neck, all those parts and those parts are structured and arranged with respect to each other. That would be a utility patent, how the thing actually is put together and works and what it does, it holds a liquid. I'm a utility patent is I'm going to speak in generalities. But a utility patent is typically going to be broader protection. If the thing is new, you may be able to get better broader protection with utility patent. If if your device is not new, let's say you come up with a new kind of bottle for holding holding soda. Put it only looks differently, it still has a sidewall so it has a bottom wall. So it has an open mouth and index just like a coke bottle does. That's not going to be patentable on the utility side, because it's not novel. It's not it's not non obvious. And so you may lean on a design patent. Well, it doesn't have new function, but it does have a new look, it has a new aesthetic. And a design patent will be cheap, generally cheaper, generally faster to obtain. There aren't maintenance fees required with a design patent as there are with a utility patent. But a design patent is much, much more narrow, it's much more limited in its protection, it it consists mainly of drawings of what your design looks like. And the protection really doesn't skew far from what those drawings look present. So if you, you make you make enough of a change, and a competitor may get around your design pattern. So what happens is you may file three or four utility patents on a design, you may file 10 design patterns to cover all the different permutations.

Aaron Moncur:

Hmm. Okay, that makes sense. What, generally speaking, and this is probably a really broad range, but is there kind of a general rule of thumb for what I should expect to pay for a patent for you know, utility and design patent?

Tom Galvani:

Yeah. I have heard numbers all over the place over the years. I usually tell people on a utility patent look, look to spend between about 10 to $15,000 and that is start to finish generally start to fall again on generalities only. That is that is a start to finish number you're going to spend most of your money and maybe probably under $10,000 to do the work involved in preparing the application and find Elina. So that may take a month, it may take two months of meetings with the attorney, the attorney drafting it, the attorney preparing the drawings, getting all the accompanying documents ready, and then filing the application, once it's filed, the application will be received by the patent office and then basically sit unless you expedite the application, it sits for six months a year, sometimes a year and a half or two years, the application will sit until it rises to the top of the pile on the examiner's desk, the examiner will begin to examine it. And they'll usually issue of rejection. And then the rejection initiates the sort of the second phase of fees, you've now are an examination or prosecution of that application. And then it's a back and forth communication, you're going back and forth with the patent office and a series of responses and rejections and response and rejection. And so fees are incurred at that time, and you may spend, you know, $1,000, maybe $5,000 in that back and forth with the patent office. And if you're successful in then it ends with a Notice of Allowance and an issuance of the patent. So that that 10 to $15,000 range. It's a big number, it is generally spread out over at least a year, sometimes three years, sometimes four years. On the design side, you know design kind of depends on design application, but you'll maybe five, maybe $5,000 in that range start to finish. If you're spending $20,000 on a design application, you're spending a lot of money unless you have a bunch of designs or an application less than $10,000, probably $5,000 or less on a design.

Aaron Moncur:

Okay. And once you actually have the patent, whether it be a design or utility patent, what what legal protection does that grant you?

Tom Galvani:

Yeah, so the the once you have the patent, you have a set of exclusive rights and exclusive means the right to exclude, you can prevent other people from making it making the claimed design or the claim utility. Utility claims. So making using selling offering for sale or importing into the country. So patent rights are territorial, they will only cover the US, the US Patent will only cover the US. But you can stop anybody from making it using and selling it, offering it for sale in the US or or or bringing it into the US. That's once the application is actually issued as a patent before it's issued, you're in this patent pending status. And you really don't have many rights at all, except the ability to send a cease and desist letter and tell somebody is patent pending.

Aaron Moncur:

How long does the patent pending period typically take

Tom Galvani:

on a design patent? You know, usually, it's been growing lately, a design patent application from the day you file will usually be about a year, maybe a year and a half until it issues that's fairly streamlined. If maybe there's one issue that arises if there's if there are no issues, you might have a patent, a design patent grant and as a year. In the past week, I filed three design patents on expedited status, and those are supposed to take about a month to two months. So those are very snappy. There's, of course a cost associated with that at the patent office. On the utility patent side, you're usually looking at one to three years unless you expedite and if you expedite it may be maybe down to a year. Once they're issued a patent a utility patent will last for 20 years from the day it's filed. And so you may eat up one or two or three years of your patent protection, just while the application is pending before it issues. On the design side. It's 15 years from the day that design patent issues not when it's filed. But when it actually issues.

Aaron Moncur:

Oh, that's interesting. What What's the additional costs to expedite something I mean, it's an extra like 5% or an extra 25%.

Tom Galvani:

On the Design patents sides. I typically work with small entities. So the patent office charges, different rates based on how large a company you are or a large entity you are. So I typically work with small entities or micro I don't have a lot of microns, but small entities are businesses of 500 or less employees generally. And there's a couple other rules but meets the definition of a small business, SBA. So if you're less than 500 people, you're probably gonna pay the small entity rate with a design application. The cost per expert is only $450. But there's an additional qualification you have to submit a call a pre exam search Which means you're sort of doing some of the work for the patent office before the application is filed, you've gone out hired a searcher run a pretty comprehensive search, and then you're turning the results of that search over to the office upon filing. So while the fee is foreign $50 with the government, the cost of that search can be expensive. So the searches I've done lately are about $2,500. So you're looking at about $3,000, in cost associated with expediting a design application, okay. On the utility side, if you're 65 years or older, or if you have a terminal illness, you can expedite for free. It's called your file a petition to make special based on age or health. And those applications get picked up pretty quickly, usually within about three months after filing for examination.

Aaron Moncur:

Oh, interesting. Yeah.

Tom Galvani:

No client who's over 65 likes hearing that. That's why they usually sell it's because I'm close to death, right? Uncle Sam, got to get you an answer. You can also expedite it, if you don't be one of those those those reasons to activate, you can you could pay expedite a utility application. And on the small entity side, that's a $2,000 fee, and you pay two grand up front and the office has set forth as it's a guide to get you either two rejections or an allowance within a year of your filing date. And I've done a number of those. And, and every single one, we've met that one year deadline, except for one, which was my second or third application, I filed under that expedited track. And the examiner just sat and it took a year and a half. And the poor client just thought Why did I pay this? This extra money? This examiner is not not reviewing my case quickly. But pretty typically, you pay the extra $2,000. And you'll have a pretty good answer within within a year.

Aaron Moncur:

Okay, okay. So nothing, I mean, legally, someone is prevented from infringing on my patent, but they can still do it right. There's nothing physically present preventing someone from selling my product. What what happens if I have a patent on something? And company XYZ decides what I'm just going to sell the same thing? What kind of recourse do I have?

Tom Galvani:

Yeah, so I'm not a litigator. So I can't speak too closely on on some of the details. But typically, you start with a cease and desist letter. They're cheap to fire off, you hire an attorney, they'll do some research into the hat that you have on the product. And then they'll look to look at whatever the alleged infringing product is, and decide if there may be infringement there. And if there is, then you can send a cease and desist letter. The cease and desist letters, usually just that is asking them to stop. Occasionally, you'll send them or I'll get them and ask for damages. But those usually don't, those usually don't convert very well. So a cease and desist letter is usually the first step. If it is a the sometimes you could send a cease and desist letter to a retailer or distributor. You may not send it to the manufacturer, but you know that it's being sold, say on Amazon. So you could send a letter to Amazon and sometimes it depends, design patents I find are more enforceable, or quote unquote, enforceable or more likely to get a competitor's infringing listing taken down, then a utility patent is but sometimes you can reach out to that that third party host or that third party seller and ask them to take it down and they will and you're achieving the same effect. Short of that you're looking at maybe a lawsuit for damages or an injunction that requires them to stop selling. And I don't handle that at all. I'm not a litigator. But but if you do that you're then you're getting into pretty serious money.

Aaron Moncur:

Okay, okay. So the patent attorney is not the person who would defend your patent, should you get into that kind of situation.

Tom Galvani:

Usually, a patent attorney is sort of known to be the patent prosecutor, which means they prosecute they they file and they work with the patent office in the examination of your application to get a patent on a pan litigators is is the attorney on the other end of the process once there is a patent issued, and it needs to be enforced.

Aaron Moncur:

Got it. That makes sense Can you speak a little bit to what does it mean first to file? And how can businesses take advantage of that concept?

Tom Galvani:

Yeah, first file, there was a lot of talk about that a few years ago. So we used to be, America used to be a first to invent system where, regardless of when you filed generally, regardless of when you filed a patent application, if you could show that you were the first person to invent it, the application or the patent would be awarded to you. We were pretty unique in the world. We were unique. Nobody else had that system, we came into conformance or somewhat conformance with the rest of the world by adopting not quite a first file, but a first inventor to file system. So most countries around the world at first a file system, which means it's a race to the patent office, and whoever files first gets the patent so long, assuming that the examination was successful. In the US, it is first inventor to file which means if you are the first person to file on an idea, and you actually invented that idea, meaning you didn't derive it from somebody else, or derive it from somebody filed later than you, then than the priority goes to you, you will be the one who has the privilege of of prosecuting that application through to to grant. And so what it did was, it created a rush, I mean, it's a race to the patent office now, because you want to make sure you're the first one to get the application. And I think I said earlier, utility applications can take a while to prepare, they could take a month to two months, they could take could take much longer than that. So if you think about if you're fighting, if you're fighting, large companies that have a large in house counsel staff and have established processes for converting something in the research department very quickly, over into a patent filing, those companies can turn it around quickly. Whereas an independent inventor is going to go and interview three or four attorneys and meet with them over the course of a couple of weeks and sit and think about who they want to go with and try to figure out if they have the money to do it and see if the idea has legs. And a lot of time goes by and they haven't filed yet. So you know, moving quickly as a benefit. The provisional application is something that a lot of especially companies have used to to to win that race to the patent office. And I talked about it utility and design patent applications. Those are both what we call non provisional applications or sort of quote unquote, real patent applications. They're applications that get reviewed by the patent office and become patents. There are also provisional applications which are filed, but are not eligible to become patent. But they do give you patent pending status and they do once filed, secure your spot in line, they give you an application number and allow you to later file an applicant non provisional application.

Aaron Moncur:

And the provisional application lasts well for like a year, I think something like that.

Tom Galvani:

The provisional application correct lasts for a one year period before it expires, you have to convert it into a non provisional, but they're much the filing requirements for there are very few filing requirements for them, you don't have to go through all the formal requirements that are required with a non provisional, so it's much easier to if you have to file that in a day or two in a rush interested situation.

Aaron Moncur:

So the provisional is a cheap way to buy yourself some time.

Tom Galvani:

Yeah, that's that's one reason for it. I've done lots of provisionals, where a client is presenting, presenting something at a conference in a week and they need something on file right away, or they're gonna pitch it to a customer tomorrow, and they've got to get something on file, or a client that isn't sure if this idea is gonna take off, it doesn't want to spend the money associate with a non provisional and so they file a provisional for less money, and then they take the year that it affords, to sort of see if the idea has legs and if it doesn't have any legs by the end of the year, they let it drop. And if it looks like it could run somewhere, then they they choose to fund the nonprovisional.

Aaron Moncur:

I see. I see. Okay, last question for you. And maybe this was already answered when we were talking about novelty and non obviousness. But but maybe not. Maybe there's something else here. If if I'm an engineer, I'm working on a new design developing a new product is I'm going about the development process, the design process. What What should I be thinking about? If I want to ensure that my chances for patentability are maximized?

Tom Galvani:

Yeah, so there's sort of I would say You know, the inventors notebook is or handbook, it's kind of gone out the window, it's still not a bad idea because the attorney may want to see it. And to help him or her in writing the application. When I when, when a client brings me an idea, I always want to document I always wanted disclosure form, I always want a good, fit, robust description of what the invention is. And oftentimes that takes place in an interview. But if you can give me you know, a 15 page PDF that I can read, that's great, that's a great disclosure. So maintaining that can be extremely helpful in the back end, or in the writing phase of the patent application. I would also say that writing down to maintain it is helpful, because

Aaron Moncur:

while

Tom Galvani:

while you, your design process will yield a final design. But it may not be the final design. That's the only thing that you want to patent. You don't have to patent something that makes it to market you can find any idea you have as long as it meets those requirements we talked about earlier. And so it may be that version one and 1.1, and 1.2, and two, and 3.0 are all good ideas. They're not the best ideas, but they're all good ideas, and they can be protected. And if they're protected, if they're all protected, that creates a bigger fence around your idea than if you had just protected the final version that came out of the process. So you know, and again, that the the inventors handbook may, may show that. The other thing I would say is keep it secret. So unless there's a one year grace period, most people do not know this. You cannot disclose the idea, and then file a patent application for more than a year later. And so keeping it secret is a paramount importance outside the US there's no grace period. So if you want to get a patent in Taiwan, or in Mexico, or in China or in Europe, if you've disclosed that idea before an application has been filed somewhere in the world, then your ability to get that foreign patent is gone. So disclosure is disclosing enough information that somebody could would know how to make this device. But doing so to somebody who's not within the business, or you don't have an NDA with or is not your attorney on this particular project. There are an action say there are a lot of wrinkles to all these rules. an NDA or a confidentiality agreement will not protect you. In all situations. It works in some but not all. But keeping it secret helps you preserve all of your options. If you disclose it, you create, you create a timeline, you create a ticking clock that will at some point start ringing and expire and may expire immediately. So keeping that secret is is important.

Aaron Moncur:

That's a big deal. Because you're working on a new product and you're excited about it. It's so easy to you know, tell people about this thing that you're so excited about. So thanks for bringing that one up. Tom, if people want to get a hold of you, what what is the best way for someone to get in touch with you?

Tom Galvani:

Oh, give me a ring I answer. I try to answer the phone always 602 to 816481. Or you can check out the website Galvani legal.com. Either one of those will work.

Aaron Moncur:

Terrific. Great. Well, Tom, thank you so much for sharing all your insight and wisdom with us today. Anything else that that you want to say before we end the show?

Tom Galvani:

No. I wanted to make sure that we got in keep it secret. So that's that's took my last box.

Aaron Moncur:

Can we add another s? We'll keep it secret stupid is the new KISS principle.

Tom Galvani:

That's right.

Aaron Moncur:

All right, Tom. Well, thank you so much again. Thanks, sir. I'm Aaron Moncure, founder of pipeline design and engineering. If you liked what you heard today, please leave us a positive review. It really helps other people find the show. To learn how your engineering team can leverage our team's expertise in developing turnkey custom test fixtures, automated equipment and product design, visit us at test fixture design.com Thanks for listening