Being an Engineer
Being an Engineer
S1E01 A Thirst for Learning. Became an engineer 20 years after graduating | Michael Hadley
With a hugely varied and diverse professional background, Michael shares with us his adventures from being a student at a prestigious engineering college, to filling the role of business manager for Tony Robbins, to being engineering manager at Pipeline Design & Engineering.
About Being An Engineer
The Being An Engineer podcast is a repository for industry knowledge and a tool through which engineers learn about and connect with relevant companies, technologies, people resources, and opportunities. We feature successful mechanical engineers and interview engineers who are passionate about their work and who made a great impact on the engineering community.
The Being An Engineer podcast is brought to you by Pipeline Design & Engineering. Pipeline partners with medical & other device engineering teams who need turnkey equipment such as cycle test machines, custom test fixtures, automation equipment, assembly jigs, inspection stations and more. You can find us on the web at www.teampipeline.us
Well, Michael, thank you for joining us. Welcome to the being an engineer podcast. For the listeners, Michael and I have known each other for quite a long time. And we also currently work together. So there is I'm sure some things I don't know about Michael yet that we'll learn about. But I'm excited to start this conversation. So Michael, thank you for participating.
Michael Hadley:I'm delighted to be here,
Aaron Moncur:you have a really interesting and diverse background, probably more so than most engineers that I know. I was hoping we could start by you just just giving us maybe a couple minutes of background, what what are some of the things that you've done, doesn't necessarily need to be all engineering, because I know you've done things that that aren't all specific to engineering. But maybe you can just share a little bit of background and catch us up to speed on where you've been.
Michael Hadley:Okay, well, being quite a bit older than you, I am a child of the 60s. And in the 60s, there was a lot of experimentation, psychological experimentation, and I'm not speaking just of the drug use, that was pretty rampant, but also a lot of really deep searches into who we are, and why we're here and what's worth doing, and that kind of thing. And I got wrapped up into that. In towards the end of my college career, which we may discuss again later. But and so as a, as a result of that, I, even though I had a degree and graduate degree in engineering, I left engineering school and went into the human development movement, where I was a seminar leader, where we would put people in hotel rooms and yell at them all weekend. And that's, that's a, that's a poor representation of it was the seminars were about accountability, responsibility, and, and finding out who we, you know, who we really are and who, you know, what, what is our, what is our contribution and our worth on the planet? And are we doing that are we living up to ourselves. And so I did that for years. And that kind of culminated in a rather large tangent, which was me being the business manager for Tony Robbins for about seven years. And when that relationship ended, I returned at that point to engineering for the first time in 20 years, 20 more years since graduating from college. And so after that, my engineering career has been greatly varied as well, from plastics, to renewable energy to medical to defense. Pretty much as a mechanical engineer, I think I've had my fingers and just about everything.
Aaron Moncur:I want to stop and talk real quick about the the human development portion of it. So this is something that not a lot of engineers have done, and is really kind of unique to you. You mentioned Tony Robbins. So that's, I mean, I'm not going to focus on this because there's a lot more to talk about, but he's kind of a big deal, right? He people know who he is. He's been around for a long time. How did you get involved in that? And and what why did you want to be involved in that?
Michael Hadley:Those are two very good questions. Well, the Human Development movement that I was involved with hugely predates Tony Robbins, in fact, he wasn't even born yet. When I started doing that, I was involved with two organizations one called asked and the which is earner Earhart seminar trainings. And the other was called Acer, the Institute for self actualization. And both of those organizations, the goal was about the same, which was to, to get people to really look at their belief systems and how they, they are their own worst enemies in most cases. And through the years, I've had dozens, if not hundreds of letters from people telling me that the seminars completely changed their lives and they're happier, and their relationships are more fulfilling and and like that. So to answer your question, specifically, I had just about come to the end of my time in the human development method, because one of the things that I've came to realize is that most of the people that needed this information The most. And it really is it's great freeing information that's available. But the people who needed the most would never come to one of those seminars. So I was basically teaching preaching to the choir every weekend. And I got to a point where I wanted to find a better route. And I thought, you know, the people that could use this as most are probably working eight to five, then going home, opening a beer and sitting in front of the TV. So maybe that's where I should be is in the TV talking to them. And I realized that also that a straight up approach would not be would not work. It has to be hidden in some sort of other entertainment. But to entertainment, that that is educational at the same time. At the as I was coming to that realization, a person that I had worked with in the past, was leaving the Robinson organization. And she recommended me to Tony. And so Tony invited me to come out, I really didn't know anything about him. At the time, I'd never heard of the firewalk, or unlimited power or any of that. In fact, unlimited power hadn't been published yet. And so Tony, invited me to come out on his diamond spend a week with him in California. And, you know, from, from Nashville, Tennessee, that seemed like a really fun idea. So I went out to California for a week. And from the moment Tony and I met each other, it's like we had been long lost brothers. And at the end of the week, he invited me to join him in the Robbins research and the Tony Robbins show, basically. And I turned him down. I said, you know, after watching you for a week and seeing you in several of your seminars, this is the Tony show, there's no room for Michael, in the Tony show. He's I said, but having been here and you kind of showing me what you're doing and showing me your books, I realized that what you really need is a business manager. And he said, well, great, do that. And I said, I don't know anything about business. Neither do I. And it occurred to me that I was his best option. And so I accepted and I became a business manager and co author of his seminars and participated in his, his second book standing the giant within us. And so that's that's how I got to meet Tony. And in Hey, he and I had a great friendship relationship through all of it. And I'm not going to speak ill of him. But towards the end of it, our paths just diverged, we, we we both saw the future in different ways. And it was time for me to move on. And I you didn't really know when I left the Tony Robbins organization what I was going to be doing. But it became clear later on. After being after doing a number of things photography, graphics design, rewriting postscript for people, I finally realized, you know what, I got this great degree, I should use it. And so that's how I got back into the engineering world. And so actually, it was sort of serendipitous I, there was an article in the newspaper, I was as as a graphic designer, I was always looking for work, right. That's what graphic designers mostly do. And so I was perusing an art history major. Yes. Right, exactly. So I was perusing the newspaper and there was a there was an article or there was a little ad in there said hey designer wanted at this mold shop. And I thought, hey, great, you know, they need some advertising or something. So I showed up to this mold shop to apply for the job of designer and they didn't mean graphic design. They met mold designer. And the interview with the owner of that company went so well, even though I had no experience. He wanted to teach me how to design molds. And that's how I got back into the engineering world. And from there, it became more and more engineering and less and less graphic design.
Aaron Moncur:So that's really interesting. Let's back up just a little bit. Before you were doing the mold design before you were doing the personal development. You went to school to become a mechanical engineer. How did you even decide that mechanical engineering was something you wanted to do?
Michael Hadley:Well, that's another story. I started school in 1970. I graduated from high school in 1969. In I was the first year of the lottery for the draft for Vietnam. And my number came up number 89. which was called on January 29. So I had to reapply to schools, I decided rather than go be drafted to go to Vietnam, I would join. My father was a naval officer. So I joined the Navy and reapplied to all my all the colleges that I could apply late to that would offer a navy scholarship. So I could go as an ROTC officer junior officer, cadet, and that's how I ended up at Vanderbilt. But what was going on that was so I mean, when I got to when I got to college, there's a lot here that I don't know how to even begin to explain it all. I grew up in the military. My father, as I said, was a naval officer, we went lots of different places. Often, when I say often, I went to 22 different schools before I graduated from high school. And one of those schools was a boarding school in England, where we were allowed the under the English rules to advance per our capability, regardless of our age. So in the three years that I was there, I went through sixth grades. And when I in at the end of that time, I was speaking French and reading Latin and Greek and doing precalculus. This is at the age of 1213. And I came back to the United States and went into the public school system, the United States, and they said, Oh, he's 12 Put him in the sixth grade. So my history from sixth grade through high school was I'd seen it already. And I didn't really, I wasn't the best of students, although I always made A's, but not by putting in any effort just because I'd already seen the material. And so when I got to Vanderbilt, when I got to college, everything changed, suddenly, I wasn't the smartest person in the room anymore. In fact, almost everybody was smarter than me. And that was a huge wake up call. The other thing that happened is Vanderbilt had, and I'm sure most colleges just have so many amazing options and courses available. So under the Navy scholarship, I took every course they would allow me to take. So for three years, I took math courses and English courses and sociology and psychology and, and all the science courses I could take in history, there was a great history professor there. And I love that and, and I just ate everything I could. And at the end of three years before I was going into my senior year, a couple of things happened. One of them was the war in Vietnam came to an end. And because of that there were too many junior officers. And I was given an opportunity to not continue in the Navy, which I accepted
Aaron Moncur:an opportunity not okay.
Michael Hadley:And which I accepted. I mean, I was I had already I'd been in the Navy for 21 years at that point, and I was ready to not be in the military anymore. Living with my dad was being in the Navy. There's just that's a topic for another day.
Aaron Moncur:I say okay, so. But taking that opportunity, and then your you had to start paying your way at
Michael Hadley:Nike in Ventura was expensive, even back then. And much more expensive than I was able to do. So I had to drop out of school, right before my senior year. And I thought, okay, no big deal. I'll just go get a job and put up a pile of money and come back to school. Four years later, my pile of money wasn't big enough, still. And so I went to Vanderbilt, I just had this idea maybe, you know, maybe there's somebody there that could help me. And I learned a really important lesson that sort of pervades politics and sociology and economics throughout the world. And that is Ivy League schools in this is a broader than the specific topic I'm about to tell you, but the specific topic is Ivy League schools do not like drop outs because it makes them look bad. So given that they go backwards to try to help you to finish your degree. So like if you came Yeah, lucky for me, so they came up with a lot of grants and and scholarships and work study and I ended up only having to borrow about $10,000 for the last two semesters total, and everything else was somehow magically they found money for so I was saved now now, but suddenly, I'm going back to school, not under The Navy hospices and not under somebody else paying the bill, but I'm paying the bill. And now that even though there were scholarships and grants and everything, but it was it was more, it was more personal. And now I had to think, what, what do I really want to get out of this? And the answer was, I want to know, how the world works on a functional level on a mechanical level, on, you know, how do things actually happen? How do things get made, how to how to stuff get done, and mechanical engineering seemed to be the place that would have the answers for that. And in a way, it did. In a way, it just opened up more questions. But that's how I ended up back in school in mechanical engineering. And when I finally got so I had, and I had enough credits that all I had to do was focus on the engineering. And I actually managed to do it, it was took me three semesters not to, to get my degree. And then I had a number of miners that were already taken care of, because of all the hours I'd put in before, when I graduated, I had no idea what I was going to do. But one of my guidance counselors or one of my professors, suggested that I take the GRE, you know, why not? You know, you're here, you've all this is fresh in your head, go ahead and take it. So I took it, and I did well enough. I'm one of those people that I kind of goofed off in school, but I always did really well on standardized tests. I did pretty well in the GRE standardized test. And so well, that Vanderbilt came back and offered me a full ride in a little office, a little computer, back in 1977. That computer was a PDP 11. Very exciting, very exciting to have a computer in 1977. So I took them up on it. They also paid me the lofty sum of $400 a month. I was rich.
Aaron Moncur:Okay. So Vanderbilt paying for your school now. And it sounds like you I mean, you mentioned you wanted to understand how the world works, right? How things happen mechanically. It was that always just kind of a a gift or Knack or a curiosity that you had, or was that developed it at some point? No,
Michael Hadley:I, I always did things like take doorknobs apart and irons and toasters. And usually they were unplugged, but not always. So I learned a little bit about electricity early on. When I did like to take,
Aaron Moncur:that brings up an interesting point. That not sometimes they were plugged in, and sometimes they were and maybe that would explain some other things. But the point I'm talking about is, you mentioned that you you have always been interested in things like that. And myself as well. I've always been into mechanical things. I remember when I was a kid, I had this Michael Jackson cassette tape. And I decided that I needed to build an alarm system around this. And I didn't know anything about electronics, but I did. I was mechanically inclined, I guess. So I put together this crazy system with paper clips and tape and like a bell and things. And when someone lifted this Michael Jackson tape out of its holder, Rube Goldberg happened and a big Gong would sound at the end. But my point is, I don't know why anyone would ever want to take my Michael Jackson tape this eight year old kid with it. But that was I was convinced that was going to happen. Anyway, I was always into mechanical things. And what do you think opinion here, the people that become mechanical engineers? Is that an aptitude that is developed at some point? Or do you think that's just kind of innate? That's that's who a person is for, you know, a long, long time?
Michael Hadley:I don't know the answer to that. I think that, you know, this is interesting. It gets back to my psychology and sociology classes at Vanderbilt. You know, the nature versus nurture, which is it. I firmly believe that anybody that has any remote interest in anything, if they apply themselves and keep at it, will eventually develop the aptitude that some of us seem to have naturally. That's just an opinion. I have I don't know that I have any evidence to back that up, except that I have through the years done things that I'm hugely unsuited for, and yet seem to by applying myself alone long enough to turn it into something that I'm okay at, and maybe even pretty good at. A great example is music. I can't carry a tune, I can't sing. But I love music and have learned to play a number of different instruments, just through pure stubbornness. And so to answer your question, specifically, I think that if anybody is interested in something like engineering, they don't have to already be a nerd that they can, they can become a nerd.
Aaron Moncur:But I have to agree with that. We won't get into it right now. But I'm very interested in training and in particular, training engineers, people who are not engineers, training them to be engineers. That's a topic for another time. But also, I will say that after 10 years of persistent dedication and encouragement, I have learned how to consistently do the dishes at night after my wife finishes cooking the meal. So another data point that tells us people can learn new things, even if they don't have the aptitude to begin with. Okay. I was part of this program for a year or so called Strategic Coach, it's, it's an organization that teaches entrepreneurs and business owners how to be better entrepreneurs and better business owners. And it's run by a guy named Dan Sullivan, who's really interesting, his big thing is he just spends all this time thinking about entrepreneurs and how to help them. And one of the, one of the principles that he's come up with is this idea called unique ability. And it's this idea that everyone has something that they're really good at. And if you focus on that thing, it is the thing that will a give you the most joy in life and in what you do, but also be have the most impact, because you're just already so good at it. You know, it's this thing that you don't understand why other people can't do it. Because it's so easy and come so naturally to you. Do you think that you have a unique ability or a few unique abilities? Or do you think that the idea that people have, you know, one or two things that they're just exceptionally good at that just a load of rubbish?
Michael Hadley:I don't know that it's a load of rubbish, but I don't know that I 100% agree with it. Again, I think it comes back. What's your take us back to something I said earlier, which is, I think it's wherever we choose to apply our attention.
Aaron Moncur:But wouldn't wouldn't a person choose to apply his or her attention somewhere that they already have, you know, some kind of innate ability.
Michael Hadley:I don't know, I think I've chosen to apply my attention to things I did not have an innate ability in. And I know that as a, as a manager, an engineering manager, I often have to apply my attention to details that I would just assume not really pay attention a lot of attention to, but in order to get the job done, well, I have to, I have to focus on those things. And I have to become extremely detail oriented, in order to do the best of my ability. And so I think, you know, for me, I remember we you know, we did it pipeline, we all did that unique ability, those exercises. And I kind of came away from it thinking well, I don't know, you know, to me, I know it particularly in this world where there's more and more and more to know about everything. I still value the idea of the renaissance person, somebody that's that's pretty good at lots of different things. And I know that my interests are hugely varied, and in span lots of things way beyond engineering and mechanical engineering and biomedical engineering. And, and I'd like to think that I'm pretty good at some of those things that don't, that are not part of my regular routine.
Aaron Moncur:Yeah, I think I'm very much the opposite. I, there are a few things that I really like and I spend a lot of time focusing on. And then other things like washing the dishes, I'm not very good at and I just I can't get myself to be interested in them. You know, I guess it's the idea of this idea that's kind of been trending for several years. Focus on your strengths, not on on your weaknesses. But everyone has a different take on that. So can you share? Maybe one One great success and one, I'll say abysmal failure. But if you can learn something from it, it's not a bismal anymore. But can you share one success in one failure that you've had in your career, and and maybe talk just a little bit about the lessons that you've learned from each?
Michael Hadley:Sure. One success that comes to mind is a medical device. Interesting, we come back to engineering again. But it's a medical device that a physician we were working with had this idea of combining a bite block, and an airway. And the the design was such that when you put the two of them together, it wasn't immediately obvious that there was any way to injection mold this and this had to be made out of PT Fe or some other biocompatible material that was at one time at one in the same soft enough to go in a patient's mouth and be bitten down by their teeth, but also stuff tough enough, sturdy enough that they couldn't crush it with their teeth. And since it's providing an airway, it had to stay open, even if there were things pushing against it. So the wise people in the room all said it couldn't be done, which was all I needed to hear. And so I went off and figured out
Aaron Moncur:Challenge accepted. Exactly,
Michael Hadley:exactly. And in fact, we I am now named on the patent for that. It's it's an airway by block is out there and is being used. And it's it did do some I mean, I think that, you know, going back to I told you that my first engineering job was with a an injection molder. And one of the things that he made me do, as he had a bunch of books about injection molding that were from the 40s and 50s, when injection molding was brand new, and he made me go back and read those books, even though you would think, Oh, that's really old information. For example, if you read a book about computers from the 60s, it would be pretty old information, and maybe not relevant. But it turns out that the injection molding books are still relevant, the the ones from the 40s, and 50s, nothing really has changed, they've come up with a few new gizmos. But more or less, it's exactly the same. And what it did was it gave me a broad understanding of what people were looking for, and how they were figuring out how to do these things. In an injection mold injection molding is there's a little bit of magic to it. And so applying it to this bite block airway combination, I figured out how to make it even an automatic it just wasn't even a handload it was an automatic tool that could function. And it was a it was a variation on a very weird unscrewing tool. But it worked. And so that was that's a pretty big win for me.
Aaron Moncur:What was what was your takeaway from that? What was the lesson learned from that success?
Michael Hadley:I don't. This is a very naive thing to say. But my lesson learned is, you know that nothing's impossible. And in people that say that things are impossible or just taking the easy way out. I know that that's not universally true. But my big takeaway from that was there's there's always a way that's actually something that Tony Robbins used to say, there's there's always a way you know, if the if the if the desire of the will is strong enough, there's always a way.
Aaron Moncur:I recently read a book called can't hurt me by David Goggins, he was this navy seal and other military Special Forces. guy and he talked about he got into this kind of second secondary career as, as a what are they calling not just a triathlon? But like where you're running 150 mile marathons. ultra marathoner? Yeah, an ultra marathoner. And and he says in his book that most people when they get to that point where they feel like they've given everything they have to give, there's just he's talking about, well, not just physical, he's talking about physical, mostly, but but mental as well. And he says that once you reach that point where you're kind of just done right, you don't have anything less to give, you actually have another 40% to give. That's what he has learned with these ultra marathons, you know, running 150 miles in 24 hour period or something like that. So I think that's applicable or related to what you're saying is that maybe it's not universally true all the time, but a lot more often than we think. Things that seem impossible maybe aren't as impossible
Michael Hadley:Absolutely. One of my one of my favorite courses at Vanderbilt when I was an undergraduate under the Navy auspices as I took a poetry writing course, from,
Aaron Moncur:like all great engineers do, right? Yeah,
Michael Hadley:is to write in. And it was, it was a fabulous course. It was taught by this fairly well known poet that was on staff at Vanderbilt, who had hair to his shoulders and an eyepatch, because he had his I had been shot out by a friend with a BB gun, when he was 12, the source of a number of poems, I can tell you, but poetry forces one to, to to really condense. At least the way he taught it, to condense an idea into just a few syllables into get it so that it's, you convey the whole of it in just a few words, rather than many paragraphs. And it's a tremendous discipline. And I really appreciated that class so much. And one of the things he would almost always write on my poems when he turned them back to me, is that vs. Somewhere on it, there'd be a sentence that said, this is interesting, Michael, but what else? That was his thing, what else? What else? Is there? What else could you think about what how else could you have said this? And, you know, it's like, we're taught in school that, you know, to get the right answer, right. That's the whole point of school for many of us is to get the right answer. Right. Yeah. And the problem with that is it teaches us that two things that are incorrect one is that there is a right answer. And number two is that there is one right answer. And I worked for years with a guy named Warren Starnes, who I think you've met. I have and he would never have satisfied with the right answer. He wanted 10 right answers or better 50 right answers, and then choose, then he would choose the best of those right answers to move forward. And I I kind of liked that idea. I like I like the idea that there isn't a right answer, but there may be many. And it's, it's it's sort of taking the easy way out to stop at the first right answer.
Aaron Moncur:Hmm, I love that, and
Michael Hadley:how that what we were saying, but I think it's, I think, consistent with what you were saying about the ultra marathoner that we often stop when we think we're used up or when we think we've got the right answer. We stopped too soon. We all stopped too soon. Yeah.
Aaron Moncur:Well, I cut you off, you're gonna start sharing about your the failure you had in mind.
Michael Hadley:Yeah, I don't know if this is my ego. But the failure I have isn't really a failure. But it was a huge failure. It but it's not a failure, like, I did something wrong, or we didn't do something correctly, because we did everything right. This was the 72 foot solar dish that we designed, had one set up next to the University of Phoenix down there by the by the airport, actually got it up running work running on Sun generating megawatts. And obviously, we're just burning, burning the electricity up in a toasters, they wouldn't allow us to put it on the grid because we were too unstable. But we demonstrated that it could be done. And not only that, we demonstrated that it could be done at a price that was competitive at the time with oil, which when we were doing this oil was $150 a barrel. And this was a lesson because by the time we got it done, and demonstrated and working, oil was $30 a barrel. And nobody was interested anymore. And so the failure was the failure to anticipate that I mean, I think eventually somebody I mean, the Chinese bought the dish and shipped it to China. But I think that the the lesson learned there is one is if you're doing something that's working, do it faster than you think you can do it. And the other is to that there's there's so much more than simply being able to accomplish a task and accomplish a task. on budget. That's not enough. For a device for a consumer product for anything it It has to do there, there has to be a fit. It's almost Darwinian, you know, a lot of people misunderstood what he said. But if you read his book, Darwin didn't say the survival of the fittest, he said survival of the fit. And what he's talking about is, is the niche that things that different species fit into. And if they fit in a niche that works, they survive. If they don't, they, they are gone. And the same is true with engineering products, whether it be as something as small as a little consumer item, or as huge as a 72 foot or a field of 72 foot reflective solar dishes. If the niche isn't there, it won't survive.
Aaron Moncur:It makes me think of validation and verification, I always get the two mixed up. One is our you designing the device correctly? And the other is, are you designing the correct device? Right, where you have to make sure that you know, you have a device that actually fits the market that people want? Yeah. Okay, last question. What advice would today's Michael, give yourself when you were a brand new engineer that you wish you had known back then?
Michael Hadley:Hmm. That's a complicated question. Um, I guess what comes up first is just to know more that it's not enough. You know, I started off as a restarted my engineering career in the plastics injection molding business. But it really wasn't enough. In fact, this is interesting, one of a consulting firm that you and I shared time with, let me go, because I wasn't my skills weren't broad enough for them at the time. And I think that one of the things that we all tend to do and corporations, cube farms, encourage is special specialization and getting to be really good at one thing, and I don't think that's enough. And I spent a lot of time getting really good at plastic injection molding. But what it really didn't come together until I was able to design a part for plastic injection molding, including the electronic components, the mechanically functioning and moving components. And when I was able to do all of that together, I suddenly became I suddenly realized I had more value now to offer that I had is just an expert in plastic injection molding. Because it turns out, as time goes by, anybody can be an expert in any one thing. And actually, Google's an expert in everything. But what what we have, I think too few of in the engineering world, or in any professional world, are people that have a broader vision, and are pretty good at a lot of different things. In and I think that that's some My advice to me back then would have been to more quickly and sooner start branching out into divergent elements of the fields around me, electronics, mechanics, thermal transfer, you know, all of those things that. I noted, certainly thermal transfer, I was so relieved when I was done with that course, I thought, Oh, I'll never have to do that again. Well, turns out it comes up a lot. And we're dealing with it right now I deal with it a lot in the injection molds. And so if you can never know enough about enough things. So I just I think it's important to keep and it's also important not to just focus on on engineering, things that you need to know about, you need to know about psychological things, and you need to know a lot about sociological things and economics. And, you know, there's there's so much to know, and we have such astonishing resources available to us now that we never had before. It's there's no excuse for not continuing your education forever.
Aaron Moncur:Yeah, I agree. That's great advice. I feel like if you're an employee at a really large corporation, maybe you can get by with having just one or two areas of expertise, but a lot of us who are working as engineers aren't working in mega corporations. We're working to design Furthermore, a smaller company, and especially in that kind of setting, you need to be able to wear a lot of different hats. And if you can't, you're just not going to be valuable enough to the organization.
Michael Hadley:I agree. And in fact, there are horror stories. Some of our some of our employees have those horror stories of being in corporations where they discouraged blending of fields you know, you're you are this you need to do this not these other things.
Aaron Moncur:All of you working for huge corporations out there that want a chance to do a lot of different interesting things come on over the pipeline. All right. Well, Michael, thank you so much for spending some time and sharing with us your wisdom and and some of the experiences that you've gone through. I always love having a chance to talk to you outside of our typical, you know, pm conversations that we have. So thank you a really appreciate it. Anything anything else that you'd like to say before we end?
Michael Hadley:This Thank you. Thank you for thinking of me if you find me more interesting than I do.
Aaron Moncur:I'm sure a lot of other people are gonna find you interesting. You will become an internet celebrity. Alright, alright. Well, Michael, thanks again. Thank you
