Alex and Lilly are engineers at Rivian who recently competed in and won the 2022 Rebelle Rally, the longest off-road navigation rally in the US. They discussed their experience in the rally, engineering behind Rivian vehicles, and women in STEM.
Main Topics:
About the guests: Alex Anderson and Lilly Macaruso are both engineers at Rivian, an innovative automotive company specializing in electric vehicles, and known for its commitment to sustainability and cutting-edge technology in the EV market. They recently competed in the Rebelle Rally, which is the longest off-road rally in the United States, an eight-day, 1,600-mile test not of speed but of endurance, technical driving and precision navigation using only a map and compass.
Links:
Alex Anderson - LinkedIn
Rivian website
About Being An Engineer
The Being An Engineer podcast is a repository for industry knowledge and a tool through which engineers learn about and connect with relevant companies, technologies, people resources, and opportunities. We feature successful mechanical engineers and interview engineers who are passionate about their work and who made a great impact on the engineering community.
The Being An Engineer podcast is brought to you by Pipeline Design & Engineering. Pipeline partners with medical & other device engineering teams who need turnkey equipment such as cycle test machines, custom test fixtures, automation equipment, assembly jigs, inspection stations and more. You can find us on the web at www.teampipeline.us
Alex and Lilly are engineers at Rivian who recently competed in and won the 2022 Rebelle Rally, the longest off-road navigation rally in the US. They discussed their experience in the rally, engineering behind Rivian vehicles, and women in STEM.
Main Topics:
About the guests: Alex Anderson and Lilly Macaruso are both engineers at Rivian, an innovative automotive company specializing in electric vehicles, and known for its commitment to sustainability and cutting-edge technology in the EV market. They recently competed in the Rebelle Rally, which is the longest off-road rally in the United States, an eight-day, 1,600-mile test not of speed but of endurance, technical driving and precision navigation using only a map and compass.
Links:
Alex Anderson - LinkedIn
Rivian website
About Being An Engineer
The Being An Engineer podcast is a repository for industry knowledge and a tool through which engineers learn about and connect with relevant companies, technologies, people resources, and opportunities. We feature successful mechanical engineers and interview engineers who are passionate about their work and who made a great impact on the engineering community.
The Being An Engineer podcast is brought to you by Pipeline Design & Engineering. Pipeline partners with medical & other device engineering teams who need turnkey equipment such as cycle test machines, custom test fixtures, automation equipment, assembly jigs, inspection stations and more. You can find us on the web at www.teampipeline.us
Hi everyone. We've set up this being an engineer podcast as an industry knowledge repository, if you will, we hope it'll be a tool where engineers can learn about and connect with other companies technologies, people, resources and opportunities. So make some connections and enjoy the show 123
Lilly Macaruso:Rebelle Rally is an off road navigation competition been training for just about a year. It's been really empowering to meet a bunch of badass women. Can I say badass?
Alex Anderson:I am in the R1 T with Lily. She really brings a spunk
Lilly Macaruso:to a whole bunch of women doing things that a lot of society thinks that women can do.
Aaron Moncur:Hello, and welcome to another exciting adventure here on the being an engineer podcast. I am super excited for our two guests today. Alex Anderson and Lilly Macaruso, Alex and Lily are both engineers at Rivian. An innovative automotive company specializing in electric vehicles and known for its commitment to sustainability and cutting edge technology in the Eevee market. They recently competed in the Rebelle Rally, which is the longest Off Road Rally in the United States an eight day 1600 mile test not of speed, but of endurance tactical driving and precision navigation using only a map and compass, Alex and Lily Welcome to the show.
Alex Anderson:Thanks for having us.
Aaron Moncur:So I really truly have been very excited for this episode, because I am totally a Rivian fanboy. I own a Rivian R1T and people ask me sometimes, do you like to truck? Are you happy with the rivian? And honest my my answer is always it's the best thing I've ever bought. And that is 100% true. It almost I'm just gonna gush for just another 30 seconds. And then we'll move on to the true purpose of the show, which is talking with the two of you. But it feels like driving a work of art to me, you know, they say that art is valuable because of the way it's supposed to make you feel. traditional art, paintings, sculptures, that sort of thing has never really done that for me but when I get in the Rivian, I always smile and it's just a pleasure and a delight to drive and own this vehicle. So gushing is over. But I love Rivian I love the brand. And so excited to talk with both You View about the Rebelle Rally, and all of the engineering that went on behind the scenes to produce this amazing vehicle that allows you both to, to win the Rally. So with that, maybe we can start with Lilly and then Alex, let's just talk about what what made you decide to become an engineer?
Lilly Macaruso:Oh, well, first off, happy that you enjoy our truck so much we do as well. That's why we're here for so many days and so much training what's what's your configuration?
Aaron Moncur:It's the adventure configuration.
Alex Anderson:Like, like color like do you go off roading and what?
Aaron Moncur:I've done some off roading in it. Mostly I just I love driving to work in it. That sounds kind of lame, I know. But that's most of the driving I do. And it's just such a pleasure to drive.
Lilly Macaruso:So it's interesting, you brought the comparison of art into it. I also never fancied myself into traditional art. And then I took up TIG welding, because so many Project CARS required help so. And that's whatever, I also started to feel more connection into engineering and art in that sense, because it takes more than just solving the solution or solving the problem. It takes creative solutions. And I think that's where we get to be artistic, which is an art to most of the rest of the world. Cool.
Alex Anderson:Did you want to answer his question?
Lilly Macaruso:Oh, sorry. I got into engineering because I first went into medicine. And I wanted to be able to work on cars and pay my way through school. And it turned out that racing and working on cars and engineering was more fun. So I left pre med, two weeks before my MCAT testing and then went into school for a focus of engineering and high performance racing. My dad gave me a high five and I think my Mom had a heart attack in the most supportive manner possible. And
Alex Anderson:I got into engineering I think it was it was a long time coming. I attributed a lot to how my parents raised me, my dad and I would Tinker kind of in the shop a lot whether it was working on like wood projects or like Lily said welding or such like that. So I just really started to develop the spatial skills young. And then my mom I think develop more of the personality skills to be a woman in a male dominated field like this. So she taught me how to stick up for myself, and really just hard work ethic. So from there, I learned more of the engineering skills from first robotics, started learning, CAD manufacturing, machining, and really got exposure to other professional engineers. And me, my siblings really are like the first generation of my family to go to college and graduate. So I didn't really have that exposure to more like a higher education early on. So being able to be in FIRST Robotics and see like, what what else is out there was was really cool. So from there, I went to the University of Michigan and studied mechanical engineering, with a concentration in manufacturing systems. And then I learned everything I needed to work for an automotive company like review. Terrific.
Aaron Moncur:All right. Thank you. My son does first FLL FIRST
Alex Anderson:Oh, you should it honestly, I anyone that has a LEGO League awesome. Yeah. So off to tell him that Rivian engineers did FIRST LEGO League to he'll be really excited. kid, I always tell them get them into FIRST Robotics because it leads to so many learning opportunities, scholarships, grants, I really recommend that. Yeah,
Aaron Moncur:they just made it into states. Actually. Congratulations, Jones. If you're listening to this? Well, rivian is a newer company in the automotive space. So for those who aren't familiar with the vehicle can either one of you talk through a little bit about what it is and why it's unique from other production vehicles out there today?
Alex Anderson:Go ahead.
Lilly Macaruso:So what makes us unique is actually our brand and how we interact with it the same way that you said it felt like a piece of art. And it's all very cold materials. How did that make you feel? What makes us different is the fact that we're brand centered. Anyone can take apart our car, anyone can learn our systems figure out, I mean, it would take a lot of reverse engineering, hopefully, because we've hopefully put so much time into it. But it's more so the amount of intention we put behind the brand of it. I mean, there's definitely the engineering side of problem solving and looking into different ways to control power, like our braking is controlled in our quad motors via power instead of your traditional braking. So coming up with new innovations is definitely awesome. But in the long side, it could actually be reverse engineered and never knew everyone can figure that out. So what makes us different is the fact that we look at it as our product is in service to other people. What are they actually taking it out for? And how do we break it as many times as possible, and validate it as many times as possible in these crazy scenarios. So that way, whenever you take it off roading, or whatever you take it to the track, you experience, a truck or an SUV or a product that you love.
Aaron Moncur:I love that answer. And I can tell you that for me. I have experienced the intentionality behind that brand. I want to go outdoors more because of it. It almost feels like this safety net, you know, that I want to take out and it's it's going to take care of me. It's going to baby me out there. And I love that about it. Let's let's move on to the rebel rally. So for those listeners who don't know what it is, Alex, can can you talk a little bit about what is the rally like what are the goals? What are the rules? What are the parameters? Just a quick, you know, 30/62 overview?
Alex Anderson:Yeah, absolutely. So the rebel rally is an eight day competition. And it is all off road with very minimal highway transits. So we are going just about 1600 miles off road and our vehicles. On top of that it is map and paper map and compass based navigation. So we don't have our phones with us, we have no contact with our family. And we need to navigate through all of the trains, mountains, valleys, sand dunes, with paper map and compass. So we're chasing checkpoints throughout the day. And it's not a rally based off speed, like how fast you get to these checkpoints. But rather it's it's how close you get to the very center of the checkpoint. So it's a bullseye. There's sometimes a big green flag there. And those are more safety points. There's blue checkpoints, which are a little harder navigate to and then the black checkpoints there's nothing there. You just have to terrain associate look around, trust your distance and heading. And then the closer you get to that center of the Bullseye is the more points you get.
Aaron Moncur:Amazing. And this This is for women only. Did that change the dynamic of the competition? Do you think?
Alex Anderson:I don't think because it was women only it changed the dynamic of the competition. I think it's the I guess the way that they instill interaction between competitors. So uh, lot of the competitors are also trainers for the rally. So they have their own private trainings that they host outside, and they really try to share their knowledge and passion for off road. So Nina Barlow was one of our trainers. And I remember she was the first one that taught me how to how to chase a checkpoint and how to plot it on a map. And then on the rally, she was the one that was helping us, we helped her sometimes. So there's really like a cooperative atmosphere that's been established.
Aaron Moncur:Nice. Did each of you have different roles as you were going through the competition? Or did that switch back and forth? Are they unique rules that how did that work? Lilly, you're smiling, you have something you want to say she does.
Lilly Macaruso:So in the rally, it's a, we have to put each other before ourselves, you own 100% of everything that's happening possible as your own piece. So I primarily drove and now and Alex primarily navigated, but it doesn't mean that if we missed something, or we were too far off, I then looked at her and went, I can't believe you did that. It was we made decisions together that entire time. And we got each other there, like there was one time in which so essentially, you're looking at a paper map, and there's little squiggle lines, and you're just trying to interpret the different squiggle lines and their colors and hopefully a distance and you're just set a direction you try to go. Now a certain squiggle line could be a very big road. Or it could be a path that someone took 20 years ago whenever they made the map. So we get to a very big road, and all of a sudden, about halfway down, it just becomes a massive boulder field. And I'm talking boulders the size of our tires. So most people would say, Okay, we turn around we find another route. Alex are very committed in the sense of No, like, how, how long could it be a boulder field, it's okay, there must be just a little bit of wash, and it'd be great on the other side. Two hours later, it was still a boulder field. So then we have to traverse a boulder field to then get to what we thought would be another road. And it's a powerline road. funfact also wasn't a real road anymore. And so it's these scenarios in which she feels bad because she thought it was a an actual road, I feel bad because I also didn't turn us around. And we own that moment together. And it's knowing those soft skills, as you would kind of hinted at earlier of just because I have feedback to give doesn't mean that in this exact moment, it's going to help us in any shape or form. So in those roles, both of us can do either skill. She's a phenomenal driver, but she chooses to navigate. I'm a moderate navigator. But I drive the car because we each respect each other in that sense. So purpose roles, but respectfully can do both.
Alex Anderson:And we've very intentionally trained up that way. So so we competed last year. And last year, we did the majority of our training alongside some of our other competitors. And each and every one of us trained as a driver and the navigator and that decision to break off. It was it was natural in our setting. But that wasn't decided until much closer to the competition. So we would be able to relate to each other's roles have sympathy for each other out on the course. And then if something happens know how to take over for the other person and vice versa.
Lilly Macaruso:The best way I could describe it is any engineer who has had to wonderfully work with a studio team, they are very focused on design and aesthetic and how it's going to make someone feel and an engineer is like but it doesn't work. So it can be the most beautiful piece of art, but it doesn't function. So imagine constantly trying to be both of those pieces at any given moment. And just imagine getting to work with someone in studio that also fully understood engineering logic. It's pretty great that we both went and did both sides, because it just made the conversation much better, easier and more solution driven.
Aaron Moncur:Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Alex, you had talked a little bit about the training. Tell us a little bit more about that. What What was the training? Like? I imagine that rivian didn't just let you stop being engineers for a while so you could devote yourselves full time to training. How did you how did you find time? How much time were you able to spend? How did you manage that? You know, training work life balance all of that.
Alex Anderson:Yeah, managing work life balance. I don't know if we did that. We did not. Okay. So training for the rally and then obviously competing in the rally. It's a full time job in itself. And then on top of that I work on the body exteriors team and Lily is on the special projects team. We both have very demanding and time consuming jobs. But one thing that was really helpful, at least in My scenario my my team really supported. everyone on my team was extremely eager to help out. They took some of my pre design presentations to the people that needed to approve them in my absence, but yeah, so last year, we trained up for about eight months. And I want to say it was about a one week per month that we were out in the desert chasing checkpoints, so to only be at your full time job 75% of the time. Other people definitely had to step in, and there was a huge support network back home for us.
Aaron Moncur:Nice, Lily, anything you want to add to that?
Lilly Macaruso:Yeah. So training not only came from us it was this decision of what are our goals? And what do we want to achieve very early on, because otherwise, we're just kind of roaming out in the desert, and you can be better or you can be worse, but we actually set the goals of, we didn't want to get any penalties, because essentially, that's like, demerits. You can control if you were on time or not your own time management, you can control if you sped or not, sometimes because our car releases to go fast. So that's difficult to not do.
Aaron Moncur:Well, that is realized there was a speed limit. What was the speed limit?
Lilly Macaruso:Oh, so it was day dependent. So on average, it was about 85 kilometers. So like, imagine 60 miles per hour, roughly. But that's 60 miles per hour while off roading if you could do 60 Maintaining up a canyon, like, by all means you don't have free runner. Yeah, that's pretty fast off roading. Yep, so certain sections have higher or lower speed limits. And it also pertains to the type of permitting they have. So there's certain areas in which there are animals in the area like tortoise, rare desert tortoise that you can't touch, you can't move you can't do anything with and if you come across it, you essentially just wait, literally wait on the tortoise. So
Aaron Moncur:Did you see any interesting wildlife out there for eight days?
Alex Anderson:Oh my God, I still have this image in my head. It was last year. And we're an Eevee. So we're silent. So when you come up on animals, they they don't get spooked the same way they might in a nice vehicle. And I remember looking out my passenger window and there was two wild horses running with us. And I'm not joking. I was in there make the most gorgeous feed. And I'm like freaking out looking at these horses. Lily, like I need to focus on driving.
Aaron Moncur:Amazing. It was beyond experience.
Lilly Macaruso:Yes! it it took a full intention of what we wanted to do and what we wanted to accomplish. And then the amount of trainers and people that believed in us internally and externally. We trained with Nina we trained with Bill Burke and his team out of Grand Junction. So it was a very intentional of who knows how to do this because we don't and how do we figure out how to accomplish that. So training was great. There's also another animal story in which we were off roading. And there were, so you're in the middle of nowhere. And there's these cattle gates. And you're like, Yeah, okay, I can drive through these and but you don't always see cattle based on where you are, especially the more prominent off roading areas. And I'm in this highly technical area, we had just passed through a cattle gate. And the brush is as tall as our vehicle is. And a cow's head just pokes out, and Alex starts screaming and I'm freaking out its about to kill us. I was so scared. Not because of a cow. Let me let me make that clear. It was just because there was this massive object moving on my window and my window was down. I got so sorry. Yes. So it's moments like that.
Aaron Moncur:That reminds me of a story. Just very quick tangent here. My son when he was really young had let's just call it a medical episode. He's fine. Now everything turned out great. But it was he was fine. Anyway, he was in the hospital for a day or two. And the doctor said, this, this might happen again, kids who have this, they tend to have it again. So be on the lookout for it. Anyway, we came home from the hospital. And a day or two later, I hear my wife screaming and I'm thinking oh, no, it happened again, right? So I'm panicking freaking out. And I ran out there and I said, What's what's going on? Is he okay? And she says, there's a bird in the house. There's a bird and like, come on. Really? That's what you're yelling about. Anyway,
Alex Anderson:so you're not sure do. You hear your sons sons? Okay. I'm glad it was.
Aaron Moncur:Thank you. Yes, yes. So speaking of other creatures out there, did you encounter other competitors during the rally? Or is everyone kind of isolated?
Alex Anderson:So it depends on the day, you essentially all start off on the same start line most of the time unless you're self camping, but most of the time you start and end at the same place for safety measures also for the camaraderie if you go do this thing for eight days and never see another Human, it's already isolating. So if you don't see the already isolated people, and it depends on where you are, some of the checkpoints are easier, some of them are harder. So typically, at the easier ones, you'll kind of have like a, they're meant to be a health check, they're off a big road, they should be very easy to get to. And it's to make sure that everyone's okay. And so there, we would see a lot of people but you get to a black diamond checkpoint, and there's nothing notating that anywhere. And you might see a couple of other people and you kind of judge how far off they are from you. And then you also like have to trust your gut. Okay, well, there were a couple of times where we would look at other people, oh, well, they, they just must be wrong. Like, of course, we're closer to it, like, we know exactly where we are. And then we're, we would click our tracker. And that would be a big slice of humble pie. We're like, nope, what right?
Aaron Moncur:Did you just keep driving? So you have what some kind of GPS unit? And when you think you're on the mark you you click it? And then it tells you if you're close or not? Is that how it works?
Lilly Macaruso:Correct. So we have Iridium satellite trackers, and which, essentially, is only it only spits out a time and a location based on GPS coordinates. So that's the only piece of and like technology that we get to interact with for the entire span of the rally, and you guard this tracker, like it's your child, because it controls your points and your systems. And yeah, at one point, ours malfunctioned. And it showed us a degree off, and a degree off and a lat long, like we're not even in like, we're not even a kilometer within the right place. To be that far off, would be like, if you're trying to make something have a, like a, like a torsion force, and then all of a sudden, it's a compression near like, not what I was aiming for.
Aaron Moncur:It doesn't calculate. Yeah.
Alex Anderson:And to add to that, that is the most stressful, like 20 seconds of our life when we click the tracker, and then we're waiting for the coordinates back and you that's when you know whether or not you wide missed, which means you get a penalty or with it, or if you're within that Bullseye essentially. So when like Lily said, when our tracker malfunction, and we wrote that down, we freaked out for a good 20 minutes. And we're like, where are we? We don't know where we are. And then we did a sanity check. We looked around, we're like, No, this part of you makes sense. We're on top of a mountain there's a mound at 90 degrees. There's another mound at 110. And we trusted our gut. And when we clicked again, it was right. So a lot of it. Yeah, it was just taking in as much information as we could. It didn't turn out we were right then. But many other times we've been like one mountain range off so
Lilly Macaruso:She makes sense. Um, like a very calm story. She hiked a mountain three times and then called into our dispatch. Oh, isn't okay. And they went yeah, but our our ended it shows you in the dynamics and we were like, cool for us. It didn't so.
Aaron Moncur:How did your relationship with the vehicle change over the course of those eight days?
Lilly Macaruso:Definitely is a relationship. That's a good word to describe it. Our truck even has a name each year. Last year, it was Glenda this year, it was Timmy so.
Aaron Moncur:Terrific. Mine is Eleanor.
Lilly Macaruso:Oh, wow.
Alex Anderson:That's such a good name.
Aaron Moncur:That's right.
Lilly Macaruso:Like for exactly Rivian, I let it go. It's very, that's really good. So for us, I would say the relationship escalates in the sense of we've been out in trucks and SUVs and our product a lot and have a lot of seat time validating these vehicles. And anything can still happen. I mean, you could have the one car that has the percentage of never happening or the near zero possibility and it could still happen. I mean, it's nothing is perfect. And to be in our vehicle for that long and have that amount of trust. Every night, we would still go into the mechanics pit and walk through our vehicle because it's a health check. It would be crazy if you didn't. And everyone would just because we're the new Evie on the block. So everyone would come up with like, what broke? Nothing, absolutely nothing. We're just trying to check in make sure.
Alex Anderson:Yeah, and it's a it's a really common phrase in the rally to call the vehicle, your third teammate. And that couldn't be more accurate. Lily and I have a huge level of respect for each other. But we also have an even huger level of respect for our truck. Because if we didn't, it wouldn't have made it through eight days if we didn't have mechanical sympathy. If we didn't know how to take specific lines or what to put the vehicle through it, it wouldn't mean it and that's that's any vehicle out there. So having that mutual level of respect for your vehicle. And like Lou said, doing those checks every single night, not damaging it. It was it was really important.
Aaron Moncur:Well, let me take a very short break here share with the listeners that our company by Pipeline design and engineering develops new and innovative manufacturing processes for complex products, then implement them into manual fixtures or fully automated machines to dramatically reduce production costs and improve production yields for OEMs. Today, we're speaking with Lily and Alex at Rivian. And talking about the rebel rally, of which they were the the winners this year. And you this is your second year competing in the rallies, right?
Alex Anderson:Yeah, this is our second year. Last year was our rookie year and we received actually the Rookie of the Year trophy. We got fourth place last year,
Aaron Moncur:Which is no small feat. I mean, first place your first year, I think there, I'm not, I'm not going to guess. But there are quite a few competitors, right. It's not like there are four competitors, and you got fourth place. There, I don't know 50 100, something like that.
Lilly Macaruso:So on average, there is about 60 teams or so that come in compete. And it's a badge of honor just to finish the rally, let alone be able to place well in it. It's a badge of honor for a manufacturer, it's for us to have the mental rigidity, and that much cooperation between all three things together. But most people go to just be able to finish not even place in the rally. So for us to then understand that we made fourth because oh, by the way, we don't track our ranking during the rally. So we've looked at, essentially, you get a list in the morning of all of your checkpoints. And then at nighttime, you get a list of your personal accuracy. And that's what we would look at to make sure. Okay, where are we close to this point where we further away? How do we make sure we can do better, but it's such an individual run your own rally event that if you're going to go get another checkpoint, just because another team is five points ahead of you. You'll make yourself crazy. And we're highly competitive people. So we knew that would run us dry.
Aaron Moncur:I'm sure that there were some technical advantages, maybe in the Rivian, just because of how its engineered. I'm curious, and we'll talk about that in just a minute. But before we get there, were there any, were there any challenges associated with the fact that you were driving an Eevee not an Ice Vehicle I imagined charging maybe was was one of them. But what else was was challenging about driving an Eevee in the rally.
Alex Anderson:Honestly, I don't think we were at any sort of advantage or disadvantage, because we were we were in an Eb, we were one of the smallest classes out there, there was six EVs and then the rest of the 65 vehicles were ice vehicles. But charging was actually a we only ever received charge when the fuel vehicles received fuel. So most of the time, that was at night, after you had completed your 30 checkpoints for the day, all of our vehicles would go into this impound, and the fuel vehicles would get filled up, and then our vehicles with charge overnight. And that was all completed on all green hydrogen. So a truck came in with 800 kilograms of hydrogen or pounds or kilograms, I could be wrong. And in our vehicles charged off of all that, so that was that was incredible that renewable innovations was able to make that happen this year. And then on the longer transit days, or the days like dunes where a lot more energy is consumed. The fuel vehicles and the ice vehicles would receive like a midday splash. So that would be either a couple gallons of fuel or just 2030 minutes of charge.
Aaron Moncur:The rivian has some different drive modes, and one of them is off road, and you can actually adjust the ride height of the vehicle as you're driving. What were some of the terrains that you had to drive over and into the different drive modes help you in those terrains.
Lilly Macaruso:So it's a very versatile course you start this year, it was up above mammoth. By the way, no one knows the route or the rally until the day of we only get to know the start even like a month or so ahead of time. And then we know the finish as they announced it as well. Historically, it's been in Glamis. So the amount of drain difference in that you're looking at mountains, you're looking at Sand, you're looking at short highway sections, you're looking at a lot, a lot of dirt roads, which we are definitely up for. But to your point, the different drive modes not only made it more capable, it also made it more comfortable. I've offered a decent amount in life and just to be able to sit that long and not need to be out of the car or move around a lot. There's still a bit of that you can't just sit still forever but it's definitely makes it where you can offer longer and it's quieter so you're not getting more fatigued just based on engine droning noise, it's a lot smoother and then you have so much more control As a driver almost on feels like from going to an ice vehicle into an Eevee, you're essentially just flexing your foot just a little bit to be able to control. And once you figure that part out, it's so so much better. And then also you have region. So it's so much more controllable.
Aaron Moncur:Yeah, Alex, anything to add there?
Alex Anderson:The Yeah, the only thing I would add there is, like you mentioned, there's so many different types of terrain that we will see in the rally, it's eight days, and almost the entire length of California, we're going over rock crawl, sand. And the ravine has a mode for each one of those. So the torque, it's applying to the wheels, how it handles the suspension differently, it is perfectly tuned for that environment. So we're able to switch that with just a flick of a button. And you can really feel the vehicle it if it starts to get kind of hung up on a rock and you just keep constant pedal and apply. You can feel the vehicle think and get out of those situations. Really well.
Aaron Moncur:That's amazing. I love the engineering behind it. What what were a couple of the most challenging situations or problems that you encountered and had to overcome?
Alex Anderson:Oh, man, which day
Aaron Moncur:Your pick.
Alex Anderson:You know, I think all of the challenges that we had to overcome, we we really had faced in training. So it was just relying on our training. And knowing what to do, when we got into that. I don't think anything was a crazy technical train that we couldn't drive or get out of. It was really just the time pressure, the stress, not killing each other out on the course. And knowing how to work as a team, after eight days of very little sleep, and very little showers. But I think we communicate very strongly. Anytime there's an issue we addressed it head on. And it wasn't we had such a strong common goal that it wasn't worth dwelling on anything that may have frustrated us,
Lilly Macaruso:I frustrated her all the time to be clear. That's all wait to see. See, it doesn't so beautifully. But there was there were definitely conflicts, and it's how you get through it on the other side. But if we just agreed with each other 100% of the time, we would either be really, really good or really, really lost. So having that conflict and disagreement not only helps you understand who you're with, it also gives them trust that I'm not just going to sit here and know that you're failing. We're trying to accomplish this together. So how do we make sure that we talk through it? There's actually a story too, which Alex probably hates. But whenever we were first doing training, it was our very first training. And the way that we bring people in was essentially you start out with a wilderness first aid, because there is a very real side, if something happened medically, you're out in the middle of nowhere. And the first responder on your scene is your teammate. So you better take great care of them and appreciate them because that's the person who could potentially save your life. And so we go through this first aid before we start going into off roading. And at the end of the training, Alex looks at me and goes what kind of feedback to have and I went, we will eat you alive. There's a lot of strong personalities. I think that you are the smartest person in the room. But if you'd never tell anyone or share your how amazing you are, no one will ever know. And since then, it has been an amazing journey because I've seen her even like in our conversations. She'll just stop be very calm. Look, amigo. No, we're not doing that. Here's what I think here's what's important. And this is what we're gonna go to. And it's been amazing. And it helped us a lot into the second year as well, to be able to communicate in that sense of if we had differences of where we thought we were, we would stop. I would express my opinion, she would express hers. 99% of time it was her opinion. Because I was like But there's this very smooth road that could take us to this checkpoint over here she goes, No, we're gonna take this old Mine Road that hasn't existed for 50 years, and we will be so much better off for it. Okay, let's go do it.
Aaron Moncur:She's the navigator, right? Absolutely
Alex Anderson:Drive as free as possible.
Aaron Moncur:Yes, were there any, were there any scary moments during the time, they're?
Alex Anderson:Scary moments. I wouldn't necessarily call them scary as much as they were just stressful. We were always under a time challenge and Lily can attest to this time is the biggest thing that ever stressed me out because we I'm the one managing the opening and closing times. And they're not in a clean, concise time. Like this one opens at nine o'clock. This one opens at 10 It says like three hours after your opening time. So I have to do the math and figure out like when we're able to get these checkpoints and I'm trying to communicate this to Lily while we're being shaken around the vehicle. So so that was something that was really scary for me whenever we are five checkpoints away and we only have 45 minutes. So I would I would just work into a ball stressing and Lily is very used to that. And she she knows what makes me stressed. So we worked really well together to communicate that and just put a plan for the day make sure we were in this together and make sure I wasn't the one absorbing that ball of stress.
Aaron Moncur:What, since you did do this together last year as well, what lessons did you learn last year that you were able to pick over to this year and helped you improve your performance,
Lilly Macaruso:Great conflict resolution, and how to have a pretty common for topic that keeps coming up
Alex Anderson:gonna be Yeah, we just keep talking about.
Lilly Macaruso:It sounds crazy, but I think it applies to most of life too. You can learn any skill, you can take in any kind of new skill education, that part makes sense. Two plus two equals four, like you can solve for x. But in order to then communicate that no one cares if you're right, if you were mean about it. So our biggest point is to understand where the other person was, and when to be able to give that feedback. And yes, there is a high part of it, in which we were very good, and are very good at it, because of the fact that we trained at it. But one of our trainers Bill kept telling us that you in a moment of stress fall back onto your highest level of training, you don't rise to a moment, you're in fight or flight. You're not like, Oh, let me express this new skill that I've never thought of or used before. No, you go, Ah, I don't know how to do this. But like, I'll just try to make the next right decision. And what comes through is that understanding of your history and everything you've already done. So luckily for us, it was a lot working it out together.
Alex Anderson:Yeah. And just one thing to add to that we really learned to the game because the rally, it's it's not something that you can train for completely. You can't train that on day seven, what do you it's going to feel like after not getting a good night's sleep and being hungry and having to think very highly. So so we really learned the game and what was best for us. I was someone that had to eat at 10am Or else I got really hangry at noon, and that was nothing that I had ever experienced in training before. So it's it's just stuff like that. And yeah, Lily knows because she would tell me like it's time to eat.
Aaron Moncur:She's got timer set on her watch, Alex, it's five till
Alex Anderson:Yeah, an alarm.
Lilly Macaruso:Oh, see, she says it like it was a nice conversation. Sometimes it would literally be are you hungry, I think you might need to eat, I don't know you did the next checkpoint, I don't think we're gonna make it to the next one.
Alex Anderson:I need to eat now.
Lilly Macaruso:Drink some water. Your brain is physically like shutting down do you have to maintain. So that's one of the other hardest pieces is you have to show up to be the best teammate and self manage as much as possible, which sounds crazy. But just to be able to manage your own health, manage your own getting your own sleep and eating the whole time because there's so many other things you could prioritize. But the best way you can show up for your teammate and most of your team in the real world is be a complete human. When you show up. Make sure that you are as ready as possible. Because most of the time, you'll probably show up and realize that no one else is ready and you're more ready than everybody else. But it's that self auditing and making sure that you can continue on as well as possible.
Aaron Moncur:What to eating and sleep look like on the rally. Are you given? Does everyone like eat the same things or stay in the sleeping tents? Tell me about that.
Alex Anderson:Yeah, I think that's the hardest thing on the rally is you're eating dehydrated, like Mountain House meals for eight days straight. And last year. It was really hard and you have to think and you have to execute on top of being very low energy and not getting all the nutrients you need. So during the day, yeah, we would we would make our Mountain House meals in the morning usually with the water that's out there for like hot tea or making coffee. And then those lukewarm meals by mid days is what would sustain us. But in the evenings there is a float full blown setup for the rebel rally. There's a like a huge tent and a professional chef comes in and does cook meals for for the competitors. But you are sleeping in tents, tents that you have to set up. There are only one or two showers available and 65 teams so that means 100 120 competitors that are all vying for those two showers. So it's you don't get all the resources that you do when you're staying in home but you make do with what you have.
Lilly Macaruso:Imagine a road trip from this like the length of California. And when you have all of these stops that feeling of waking up, packing up, then go doing whatever activity you wanted to Do and then that feeling of okay, well, now we need to have another camp. And then we have to set up essentially our whole living situation again. And in certain base camps, you have more infrastructure than others, like Alex said the two showers. But is it worth it to wait that long like, it doesn't make us more competitive we have other times, so it's genuinely deciding to shower or have more time to look at our maps. So it's making those compromises and decisions as a team. But it's a lot, very much. So you wake up, you break down a full camp, and then by 5am, you have to go through and plot 40 checkpoints, and you're essentially just looking at, I mean, it goes back to basic math on like an X and Y axis. And then you're trying to make sure that you plot very accurately because a point five lead could be the width of a football field on a map. So accuracy with out being able to actually achieve it. So you're getting as close as possible. But Alex is plotting, let's say anywhere between 20 to 40 checkpoints. And then there's also a drivers meeting where they give you all the information about course, like this section could kill you be very, very careful, all of the things that you really need to know. And then there's also something called an duros. And this is imagine step by step instructions by an artist. So like a Mapquest if it was hand drawn by your kid. So each time is what that person interpreted whenever they were at that intersection. So it could genuinely be just an intersection. And there's a big boulder picture on your right. But you could pass 20 Big bowlers before getting to that spot. So it's very subjective, you go a distance. And in theory, if your distance matches where they did, you should see the same thing. And all of this is happening before 7am By the way, we ever named at 7am. And then you have checkpoints to take, like, and you have all the competitors doing this and all the staff that go out and do course, I mean, they have to be on course before 7am If we leave at that time, all of course has to be set up before that time. So it takes an immense amount of amazing people that don't do it because it's a job but because they love the support of it and what is coming next. And it's really cool.
Aaron Moncur:That sounds amazing. I don't think I fully appreciated how strenuous the rally is for the competitors and probably for all the support people as well. But those eight days it I mean, it sounds brutal. After talking with both of you. It's not just a fun off roading drive. It's it's work.
Alex Anderson:It's really hard. I think when people look at the competition, and I hate to say it, but naturally, it's a women's competition. A lot of people assume it's easy. It's it's not, it is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. And when we really sit down with people, and we explain what we've done, they're like me, I could not have done that I couldn't have showered for three days alone, let alone wake up at 5am and have to plot checkpoints. But we really are exposed to the elements. We were outside plotting checkpoints in 14 degree weather in Mammoth, California, all the way down to Glamis, where it was 110 degrees, and again, we had to fully function and perform at a very high level. So it's not easy by any means.
Aaron Moncur:Well, outside of the rally what I'm curious what is your favorite thing about rivian vehicles, maybe it's a feature, maybe it's some piece of behind the scenes engineering that no one ever knows about? What what's your favorite thing about whether it's the r1 T or the r1 s the truck or the SUV?
Alex Anderson:Oh, man, I'm going to have to say, our interiors and our suspension together. And the reason being we did eight days in the car this year, we did eight days in the car last year, and then all the training on top of that we were really comfortable when we were in the car, our seats are extremely comfortable. Our H fac AC seats and heated seats. All of those little luxuries just made the rally that much more comfortable when you're in an extremely uncomfortable situation. And then the suspension and what different trains we had to go over it. It just it really focuses on the customer, which was us in that situation and makes it a very bearable situation.
Aaron Moncur:Great and Lily.
Lilly Macaruso:So I'm a bigger fan of the T than the S I think that both are phenomenal platforms. But since I personally own a yellow T, but that's, that's where I land. But the so I'm gonna give this in three parts first, the like, hidden I don't know if it's quite hidden but essentially we take our emblem and then we repeat it in different patterns everywhere that you would just need some kind of crosshatch pattern on different surfaces. So For example, the senator charge pad is actually the rivian emblem repeated over and over. So it's that attention to detail that I think is really cool. And for the experience, you side of it, it's the same as Alex said, in the sense of, we have an, we have a hydraulic air ride suspension, it right in itself is very useful. But it's also very stiff and doesn't particularly or it doesn't transfer weight nearly as well. So whenever you add the hydraulic system into it, it allows for that handling that you love. And third, my absolute favorite part of it is I started in Project CARS. So I would normally have some very cheap thing that I was trying to make fast, which, if it's cheap, it's probably if you make it fast, it's not reliable. So then I would need a daily driver vehicle. And then if I wanted to Off Road, that also, again, if it's cheap, it's pliable. So for me, this is the first vehicle I've ever owned that could do it, and in multiple areas and do it well. We didn't we benchmarked off of two polar opposite vehicles, like you would normally try to benchmark and say X amount of cupholders or it achieves this amount of like, torsion or like whatever it is, you're only looking for X percent better. And we took two polar opposite vehicles, one that would be an off road expert and the other that would perform perfect at a track. And then we created a vehicle off that, of course, that's gonna pull in opposite directions, but the fact that it does well in all of it, not just okay, is my favorite part about our vehicle.
Aaron Moncur:I will second that it feels like driving a an off road. Sports Car like an off road luxury sports car. I love the details. Also that you mentioned Lilly the attention to detail, right? There are these little, just these little things hidden all over. And then you find them and they're like Easter eggs are like oh, so clever. I love that they they put that there it is. It is definitely a designed vehicle. It's not It's as what's the word I'm looking for, I guess it's as like aesthetic as it is functional. And it does all of those things. So so well. I love the speed. Personally, we'll we'll launch the vehicle with the kids in it and they just they get such a kick out of it. I think I looked up one time zero to 60 times for Ferraris, and the r1 T was faster than about half of them which just blew my mind right.
Lilly Macaruso:Half of them while towing a trailer to by the way, like he could be towing a trailer and still be dead zeros zero to 60.
Aaron Moncur:That's incredible. I mean, this is like a 7000 pound truck that's faster zero to 60 Faster than half the Ferraris out there.
Lilly Macaruso:That's nuts. Yeah. How do you prepare another person that's never been in any V, I always I'm like, Hey, we're about to take off like a jet. Because an airplane you're okay, we're gonna take off we're launching into the sky that makes sense to most people. But whenever you're looking at, I'm gonna take off quick from this light, by the way, which is more than quick, but and just that feeling that your body starts to get, we were actually on a drive one time. And while I'm on a track, the gentleman I was with and like we're walking through the vehicle, he starts to like, Oh, what was that? And I'm thinking he's asking me exactly how like the suspension hookups, and like, what kind of throttle positioning and what kind of input so my brain instantly starts to go into that engineering of, well, the vehicle is doing this, this and this based on this input. And he goes no, no, my body. What did I just feel? It was in my brain? Yeah, I haven't like, Well, I'm not.
Alex Anderson:It literally feels like your chest is like collapsing, and like lungs are just pressing into the back of the seat. It's really, really incredible. Yeah,
Aaron Moncur:I can't do it with my wife. She does not like that. And I get in trouble. So I have when my kids are in the car, we have fun but a lot more safe when the wife is in the car. Alright, one or two more questions, and then we'll we'll wrap things up here. I'd love to hear from each of you about specifically within the context of your role as an engineer. What is one thing that frustrates you? And conversely, one thing that brings you joy?
Lilly Macaruso:Oh, man, you gotta go. Firstly, you won't have to think about a doubt. Yeah, that's what that Facebook
Aaron Moncur:You know each other so well.
Lilly Macaruso:So, what frustrates me most is people because the math will always bath and it will make sense there's a right and a wrong answer. The part will break or it won't. it withstands the forces or it doesn't. And that part I love it makes complete sense to me. There is an answer to it and we can solve it. We need to maybe get more creative but with people. I it just doesn't make sense because my brain goes into Logic and I had to learn that there's typically two types of conversation. There's an emotional conversation and a logical one. And I'm normally trying to apply logic to an emotional conversation. And Alex can deeply attest.
Alex Anderson:I can also relate. Yeah.
Lilly Macaruso:But it's, that's the part that frustrates me the most. Because again, like we can solve any problem, like we're sending people into space, like, we can figure it out. But the people part of it is the hardest part. Because even whenever you're right, it doesn't matter if it didn't land well, or that person didn't understand. So you can make the coolest car, you can design the best parts. But if you can't communicate it, and advocate for yourself and your parts, it doesn't matter. And that's the part that frustrates me because the communication side of it is seemingly the most simple, but no one teaches you in all their school, they're like, here's how you solve these crazy equations. And here's how you get a job. But they don't go, Hey, you have to be nice to people. Otherwise, they wont like you.
Aaron Moncur:Absolutely, very well said. All
Alex Anderson:Right, thought about my answer. I, first of all, I completely agree with the lily. There's definitely right brains and left brains in all companies. And when we're trying to apply logic to things, and it's a conversation, that's very challenging, but I think the two things that frustrate me, and simultaneously bring me joy are all the limitations that you have to fall within when you're designing apart. As as any type of design engineer, there's, there's costs, there's mass. Like Lou said earlier, we're interfacing with a studio, which is a lot of like artistic creation when it comes to designing vehicle exteriors or interiors. And then you also have supply chain on top of that, to actually be able to execute the designs. So all of those limitations can be extremely frustrating when you're just trying to deliver the absolute best product you can for the customer. Or you're just trying to make your ideas come become a reality. But at the same time, the reason why those bring me so much joy is those are the reasons that we innovate. We innovate using different materials, different designs, different combining different parts, in ways that we wouldn't have thought of before. Because the very first idea if you just run with that might not be the best idea. So those those definitely both bring me joy and frustration every single day constantly. But those those really are the reasons that that we innovate. And I can't, I can't speak to any of them. But we do have four patents pending in my team. Currently, because of those exact things. We were limited by cost and mass and we had to think efficiently and redesign things to make it happen.
Aaron Moncur:I love all those parameters that you're talking about where you have to balance one thing against another against another as you're designing some new part or system. And it's like a puzzle, right, which I think that's what makes engineering so fun is because it's not just this one thing you have to solve you have to consider all these these different things and consolidate them somehow, in a way that that overall works the best engineers, we love solving problems and and it's just such a pleasure to be able to do engineering work. Alex Lilly, thank you so much for being on the show today. What a delight it was to speak with both of you here about your experience, winning the rebel rally this year, and a little bit about some of the engineering engineering behind the the rivian. Platform. Before we end, is there anything that either one of you would like to say anything that we should have talked about that we haven't?
Alex Anderson:I think the only thing I would say is thank you for sharing our story, thank you for seeing the importance of an Eevee competing in this competition and in doing extremely well. And, and you're providing a platform to amplify women in engineering. So I really do appreciate that.
Lilly Macaruso:So one of the things that I did miss was the what brings me joy. And when it was very intentional to join Rivia. And for me, it was the sense of the thing that I love to do with killing the planet. Like you can't get around that part. And what brings me joy is the fact that the innovation that Alex was talking about is also solving long term solutions. Because there is a very real fact of what's next, what comes next, what is the next generation or generations after inheriting, and we have to be smarter about how we do it. Otherwise, it won't exist, or it won't be inhabitable at all terms there. But what brings me joy is the fact that we can provide a different future because of the way that we solve problems. And we have all the answers and we can solve it. So it's brings confidence knowing that through engineering, you can look at a problem and go hey, this whole city needs a solution on a fuel system or a fuel cell. Okay. How do we create EVs? What does that lifecycle that look like now? How do we make sure that it pushes us into the future and our why is that Bigger than just our product. And I think that's the biggest part that brings me joy. So thank you for having us. ABS deeply appreciate it.
Aaron Moncur:Absolutely. Thank you both so much for being on. How, how can people get a hold of you, I'm sure people are gonna listen to this and be like, I want to hear more about the Rebelle Rally and rivian and Alex and Lily personally, how can people get a hold of you? You
Alex Anderson:can find me on LinkedIn. My name is Alex Anderson. What I will say is since the rally and since being on a lot of these public speaking events for Rivian, my LinkedIn messages are completely blown up. So I may or may not reply, but feel free to feel free to connect me with me. I'm
Lilly Macaruso:a little bit more difficult, and most areas of life and this one pertains to it as well. So the way you can get a hold of me is if you go out for an adventure, and we'll probably see you out on the trail, because I have very bad social media. And even worse it, I don't even have a LinkedIn, because I want those genuine interactions of not that LinkedIn is not genuine, but it's the go have an adventure, or Take someone with you on an adventure. Get outside. I loved how you said it inspired you to want to do more adventures, and adventure for everyone is different. You are the direct reason of why we manufacture the way we do and how we make decisions the way we do because it's in service to getting out and having an adventure.
Aaron Moncur:Thank you so much. Well, I am very grateful that that ravine exists because it is it sounds silly to say like a car, but it really has enhanced my life in certain ways. And I love it. So thank you very much for what you've done, and for being on the show. It's just been a delight to talk with both of you. Thank you.
Alex Anderson:Thank you.
Aaron Moncur:I'm Aaron Moncur, founder of pipeline design and engineering. If you liked what you heard today, please share the episode. To learn how your team can leverage our team's expertise developing turnkey equipment, custom fixtures and automated machines and with product design, visit us at Team pipeline.us. Thanks for listening