Derek McKenney is the director of engineering at Puritan Medical Products where they manufacture medical swabs and related products. Derek is responsible for corporate and site level engineering in multiple facilities, including manufacturing support, capacity expansion, process validation, continuous improvement, and project management.
About Being An Engineer
The Being An Engineer podcast is a repository for industry knowledge and a tool through which engineers learn about and connect with relevant companies, technologies, people resources, and opportunities. We feature successful mechanical engineers and interview engineers who are passionate about their work and who made a great impact on the engineering community.
The Being An Engineer podcast is brought to you by Pipeline Design & Engineering. Pipeline partners with medical & other device engineering teams who need turnkey equipment such as cycle test machines, custom test fixtures, automation equipment, assembly jigs, inspection stations and more. You can find us on the web at www.teampipeline.us
Derek McKenney is the director of engineering at Puritan Medical Products where they manufacture medical swabs and related products. Derek is responsible for corporate and site level engineering in multiple facilities, including manufacturing support, capacity expansion, process validation, continuous improvement, and project management.
About Being An Engineer
The Being An Engineer podcast is a repository for industry knowledge and a tool through which engineers learn about and connect with relevant companies, technologies, people resources, and opportunities. We feature successful mechanical engineers and interview engineers who are passionate about their work and who made a great impact on the engineering community.
The Being An Engineer podcast is brought to you by Pipeline Design & Engineering. Pipeline partners with medical & other device engineering teams who need turnkey equipment such as cycle test machines, custom test fixtures, automation equipment, assembly jigs, inspection stations and more. You can find us on the web at www.teampipeline.us
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Derek McKenney:It's not even about the accomplishment itself. But it's the ability to persevere work together and overcome the challenges that is so rewarding. There's there's no feeling like it.
Aaron Moncur:Hello, and welcome to another exciting episode of The being an engineer Podcast. Today we're speaking with Derek McKenney, who is the director of engineering at Puritan medical products, where they manufacture medical swabs and related products. Derek is responsible for corporate and site level engineering and multiple facilities, including manufacturing support, capacity expansion, process validation, continuous improvement and project management. Derek, welcome to the show.
Derek McKenney:Oh, thank you, Aaron. My pleasure to be here. And looking forward to a chat today. Awesome.
Aaron Moncur:So am I. So what made you decide to become an engineer?
Derek McKenney:So for me probably a little bit of a stereotypical engineering story. I mean, I was always really interested from a very young age and why things worked. And that sort of transition from more of a sciency field to much more mechanical things. You know, so it was like, my, my box fan stops working, I have to tear it apart and understand exactly what an electric motor is. And you know, what, what this is all about, and in a transition to, you know, as I got older, the law and more, you know, and then later in life, that transition to process automation and, you know, getting an engineering degree, but it's always been a seeking to understand the why, and all things mechanical that really led me there. And, you know, for better or worse, I knew I wanted to be an engineer very early, probably by the time I was in middle school. So my, my sights were set on an engineering degree before I maybe before they should have been, but you know, I've always known what I've wanted to do that that's something anyone that knows me will tell you. That's
Aaron Moncur:terrific. I love that you've enjoyed taking things apart and figuring out how they work. It reminds me of when I was, I don't know, eight years old or something, I had this, I had this FM radios like a portable battery powered FM radio with the little jack for headphones. And, you know, you plug the headphones in and you can hear the audio. For some reason, I took the back cover off, and I was just playing around with the headphone jack. And I happened to find just the right contacts internally. I don't even know why it did this, or if it should have done this. But just the right context for touching the metal of that headphone jack connector would would produce the same audio as plugging it into, you know, the receptacle it was supposed to go in. And I was so excited that that I had quote unquote, figured this out, right. But anyway, same thing for me. I loved taking things apart and just looking at the internals and figuring out how they worked.
Derek McKenney:So it's the knack of Dilbert calls it right. And
Aaron Moncur:I think there's like an audio clip about that the, your son is going to become an engineer. Oh, no, the nakki has the neck. Exactly. Well, you are you're a director of engineering, you're in a leadership position. And I guess what are a few of the things like the most influential things that factors that you think allowed you to to climb to that level? So
Derek McKenney:I think the first really was, you know, my commitment to bring people together. You know, I'm, I really strive to drive collaboration, which is something in engineering, it's it's very easy to become siloed very easy to have individual contributors that are sitting together but not necessarily working together. And you know, I I've always prided myself really to focus on making sure everyone around the table is working together. That that's that's probably the biggest contributing factor. Um, you know, management and leadership are a little bit different. So being able to lead P Boom, that's something that I've, I've, you know, sort of fallen into in just managing projects in again, bringing people together. And realizing that, you know, I could do more than, you know, I can do only so much as just an engineer, right. But being able to bring people together to build a team is so much more impactful, and so much more rewarding for me as well, you know, taking a small group of motivated people and really going out and being able to make meaningful change, that that really drove my passion around leadership and management and pushed, and I pushed myself in that direction, and continued, again, to build those relationships and those teams very early in my career, just just to the cross functional level, but always collaborating. And, you know, maybe going a little far outside my swim lane once in a while, but you have to find that have to find that zone.
Aaron Moncur:Yeah, you got to stretch yourself sometimes. Right? Absolutely. And
Derek McKenney:I think the you know, maybe the second piece of that journey was always being somewhat aware of the bigger picture. And, and thinking about things a little bit beyond myself. And understanding not only, you know, some things some synthesis, not only what my piece is, but you know, collectively, again, as a whole, being able to see a bigger picture. And then really focusing on that made, it makes it easier to, to jump into a different level in the organization, and start to participate. And, in the third piece of it is really being in an organization that supports that organic growth wants to bring people up internally. And that's something that peered and I was lucky enough to be to be exposed to sort of midway through in my early career to really have some great mentorship, and some good direction, I mean, that that's really key, as well, I mean, it's very hard to be a good first time manager, if you're a first time manager that you have it, by some standards may not be the best. So those those early habits that are built in relationships, those are very impactful. And I was lucky enough to have very good mentor ship early in my career, and still do tonight.
Aaron Moncur:That's great. I love that you brought it back to people initially, I mean, everything that we do is through people. So one's ability to work with people to get along with people to coordinate with people is really such a huge driver, of course, you have to have the technical experience and aptitudes as well. But without that people side, you're just never going to be an effective leader
Derek McKenney:in I think leading engineers is a little bit different than maybe other management roles. And it mainly because you have the very specialized technical skill sets. So you have by default, you know, subject matter experts, and the cross functional work, it isn't isn't again, necessarily happening organically the way that it needs to in order to have ultimate success. So I think being able to see that sort of judge from personality traits, and, again, facilitate that interaction is is key to to moving up to the next step.
Aaron Moncur:Yeah, definitely. So speaking of moving to the next step, this might sound like an odd question, but I'm curious to hear. Have you ever felt that you? Have you ever felt this imposter syndrome? Right, like, oh, what? Why am I good enough to be here? I shouldn't be in this position. It should be someone else. Is it? Has that ever been a thing for you? Or have you always just been super confident? Yep, I got this. I'm right where I'm supposed to be?
Derek McKenney:Oh, not not at all I've, you know, especially even starting in undergrad, the feeling of, you know, you go through all the effort with an engineering degree. And then you get to this point where it's like, Did Did I really do this that I really learned that I really an engineer to somehow did I dislike appear here. And the same thing early in my career, you know, going to a large corporation at Becton Dickinson and getting thrust into large projects and doing well everyone telling me I'm doing well, I'm getting more responsibility being promoted, and still thinking, you know, like, how come on like when someone gonna find me out. And I think that for me, there's there's a few things to overcome that and one of them is taking a step back. And just looking at, hey, this was five years ago. And now this is today and just visualizing how much I've actually grown. Letting go of some of that perfectionism. And you know, I have this thing where I always say I try you know, I try and that and that doesn't mean you No. And I, I've tried to push that down and I use the word try maybe too much. But it's an effort to not think about trying but that I've done a good flick, I've actually legitimately done a good job. And that isn't something up, you know, that it takes, it's taken me some effort to put into that, to get to a point where I can look back and say, hey, you know, that was a good job, we did a good job as a team, I did my job. And instead of being critical, and a perfectionist and thinking that, you know, I'm about to be found out by someone for, you know, not not having my not having done what it appears I have.
Aaron Moncur:That's a funny phrase, I'm going to be found out, I feel like I have the same you know, and it's, it's so funny, sometimes I'll be talking with my wife, and and she'll say, Oh, you did? I'll tell her about something that happened at work. And she'll say, Oh, congratulations, that's great. And I'll be like, Yeah, but this thing could happen, or I'm not good enough in this area. Just for some reason this human nature just always goes back to, I'm not good enough for I shouldn't be here.
Derek McKenney:Yeah, it's a it's a tough thing to overcome. I mean, it's just, it's not something that happens naturally. And it can become it, taking the focus off what you have done and focusing on what hasn't been done. Also, there's no reward in actually accomplishing something. So that's it definitely after being an engineering school will put you in that position. I think, you know, most of most of my colleagues agree, you come out wondering how, how did I get here, because I don't think I did that. Right? If I'm here now, like, you know, but it's no, very true.
Aaron Moncur:I attended this coaching work workshop, where they talked about this, this idea of the gap and the gain, they called it. And they made the analogy between the horizon being your ideal, where you think you should be where you want to be. And the fact that you can never get there, because the further you move, the further the horizon moves, right, but you're on a boat sailing, and you're never gonna get to the horizon, you're never gonna get to that ideal, where you think you should be where you think you want to be. So it's really important. And you said exactly, this, it's much more important not to look at the distance between where you are and where you want to be. But looking back at what you've at the game they call it, right, there's the gap between where you are on the horizon and the gain, what you've actually gained over the past whatever it is year, five years, 10 years?
Derek McKenney:Absolutely. And that's something that I mean, it takes, again, it just takes effort, it takes a little therapy, it takes all those things to really overcome. Yeah, yeah. Well,
Aaron Moncur:what trends are you seeing these days in medical device manufacturing? I mean, maybe it could be something about the costs involved, or new processes being used old processes that aren't being used materials, just kind of what patterns? Are you seeing in medical device manufacturing?
Derek McKenney:Yes. So for for us specifically, right, we're in we're in sort of a single use disposable business. And we're also a somewhat highly customized manufacturer. So we do a lot of work. That is sort of mid range volume to lower volume, very custom skews. And, again, every large company that has a diagnostic test needs a specimen collection device, and oftentimes, you know, the device is designed specifically for that test. So one challenge, and that we've had to overcome, you know, is how to be flexible with our automation, you know, how we can integrate a lot of what has been developed for other industries around flexible automation platforms. Again, in the medical device world, we, it takes us a little bit to adapt to new technologies, for a lot of different reasons. But change needs to be validated and vetted very thoroughly through you know, existing risk management procedures and quality management systems in place, both in the United States under the FDA, and globally under different regulations. So for us to move towards new technologies, it takes a little bit of time so we tend to be watching what other industries are doing and then we catch up a little bit as other technology proves out. But again, that's a that's a big move for us is really towards you know, how can our automation platforms become more flexible, how can we address different product lines and still maintain efficiencies? Because medical devices are to some extent a commodity especially in single use environments. So we we have to remain cost competitive and still deliver you know, exceptional quality I mean that there As a patient on the end of everything that we produce, and it's at the utmost importance to never lose sight of that, I mean, that that's one reason why I don't think I would ever work in another industry besides medical device, because there's so much there's so much at stake for global health. And, you know, it's, it's someone's, you know, relative grandmother brother, on the other end, and it's, that level of connection just doesn't come with, you know, you're making a roller chain, or at least for me, or maybe a consumable on the consumer side. So it's, it's really meaningful work. And that, that drives innovation around the patient. And in our case, trend wise, we're really moving towards, you know, patient centered care. So in home at home testing, so instead of having, again, maybe a large device that needs a provider to use with some special use instructions, moving to something that has been designed to be used at home by someone that can read a short IFU and perform the test, and COVID really accelerated this, you know, at home testing, was something that, you know, we didn't see a lot of until COVID, you know, now we have all of these rapid tests, all over your local pharmacy, you know, being distributed by the US government. And that has opened up a door, you know, now for approvals around flu testing, or combined flu and COVID. So that means shrinking these test kits, getting them to go on shelf space, so making things smaller, more compact, more efficient. And that's really driving the tech, not only the technology, for manufacturing, but also the product design itself, because we're moving away again, from something we assume a trained provider may administer to something that's really designed for at home use, which, even for a nasal sample, it's not intuitive to just insert the swab, let's say, an inch to an inch and a quarter and your nose, you may, with a provider they know to do that. And historically, you know, there was some resistance to how do we prevent somebody from, you know, inserting this beyond the safe depth? Do we need a hard stop engineered into the device? Do we need, you know, a specialized sampling device that maybe isn't a traditional nasal swab as we know it. And, you know, we're starting now to see, as we see that trend move, we're able to understand sort of the clinical impact of some of these devices, and that maybe some of that risk was a little bit mean, we might have, we might have overstated it a little bit with COVID. Right, we were able to go out into the market with an at home test that was effective. And now that that's kind of now the prior art and the baseline for what will be really the future. I think of diagnostic testing his home based you know, I want the result on my phone, I want it to Bluetooth to the analyzer that's on my nightstand and not have not have to worry about making an appointment or going to see a physician.
Aaron Moncur:Now if we could just get dentistry to be an at home procedure we'd be we'll be all set.
Derek McKenney:You know, I always wanted the you know, the entire the full mouth toothbrush, and then I realized that that was on the market. So it's it's been done now. So at least it's just plug it in and wait. Just a little easier. Well, baby steps, right. We're getting acne once that happens done. Yeah. All right. Well, let
Aaron Moncur:me take a short break here and share with the listeners that our company pipeline design and engineering develops new and innovative manufacturing processes for complex products, then implements them into manual fixtures or fully automated machines to dramatically reduce production costs and improve production yields for OEMs. We're talking with Derek McKenney today, Derek, what, what are a few of your biggest challenges as an engineering leader?
Derek McKenney:So one, I would say my right now my biggest challenge actually comes from a sourcing actually sourcing sourcing engineering talent where I am here in the state of Maine. And it's, you know, it's improving, and we're working on, you know, outreach with local organizations and universities. But we're at you know, we've grown and our needs have changed rapidly as a result of the growth we experienced during COVID. Now sustained by nonseasonal business, but we're not in a you know, we're not in an area where there's a lot of manufacturing right, Maine isn't known as sort of a hub of manufacturing or technology, although we do have here in Southern Maine, kind of a unique little biotech community starting with some new startups and new companies. So we're the state of Maine is really taking the time and effort and putting some funding behind building and attracting not only educational institutions, you know, Northeastern just opened the room Institute here in Portland. So we're seeing some additional additional attention from outside the state, which is very helpful, as well as, you know, some new innovation here in the medical device front, which, which is great to see. It's great for the state, and it is helping but again, to find that talent experienced engineering talent, it is a challenge. And it does take time, you know, we've we've done well so far. But it definitely it doesn't come easy. And I would say my The second challenge that we face here on a somewhat regular basis is our ability to, you know, as an as an engineering team, and then that falls on me as well to react to the day never, you know, it's not that it's never ending, but there's always more and more customization requests. And as regulations increased, the, the effort required for product design and development increases as well. So being able to match industry standards and changing requirements with the staff on board is also an ongoing challenge to make sure that we have the right expertise to support the products. And these are global products. So we have regulations spanning well beyond the borders of the US, again, to make sure that we have the right skill sets, both in the product development and the manufacturing front to align. Again, we're ever changing regulations. So it's, it's a it's a constant effort to maintain that alignment.
Aaron Moncur:How about and there might be some overlap with these answers, but how about what are the biggest challenges that you see facing the medical device industry these days? Yeah,
Derek McKenney:I would say it's, it's the regulation changes. And I can maybe speak a little more in detail on that, you know, in the US, we're a single use device, we're a class one considered very low risk. And we're exempt from some of the requirements of higher class devices. You know, obviously, we're not making implantables. You know, we're not making pacemakers, we're making a specimen collection device. And different risks means two different requirements. Now, as we expand globally, the requirements around class one devices have increased, the devices haven't necessarily been up classed. But the expectation is, you have much more detailed documentation behind not only the design, but the manufacturing processes themselves from what has been historically required. So that means now a lot of legacy products, there's a lot of work to do, you know, products that have been on the market for 10 or 20 years, it's a substantial catch up effort. And the dates for compliance, you know, are somewhat set now. So, you know, we've been working over the last year to bring our products into compliance. And, you know, we want to maintain being a global company, but the cost of that has increased. So again, it the challenge is not only, you know, regulation, but the cost of compliance, and, you know, they're, they're woven together, but that's, that's hidden a little bit in overhead, but it's still, it's something new, and in order to remain competitive, we have to look to our manufacturing operation to make that difference up in most cases. So it saw that that's where it becomes a challenge globally, we have to be very efficient manufacturers. And we also have to meet, you know, all applicable requirements to stay competitive. So it's a, it's a balance there.
Aaron Moncur:Speaking of becoming more efficient, what, what's a tool that if you had, if your team had would make your engineering efforts, you know, 10 times more effective than they are right now. And, and feel free to stray beyond the, the boundaries of known physics, you know, could be whatever, but what, what the tool would make you guys just 10x more effective.
Derek McKenney:You know, one thing that would would definitely, if we had a, you know, sort of a, a documentation button, where we could just push the button and we could generate, you know, our design history file, right, just the sheer amount of time we spend creating documentation. It can't be understated and it's something that gets it gets lost, right? You know, you do the work. But, you know, the level in which we have to maintain our documentation, it just takes so much time, if we could just, you know, push that button and have that work documented? It would, you know, it would really, it would open up many, many more opportunities, but there's, you know, on the risk management front, it's just stop. There's no way around it, but time. And it's, it's something that we do we spend a lot of time and resource on. And, you know, it's it's a requirement to make a quality product without question. But it does, it consumes resources. I
Aaron Moncur:hear you loud and clear. We are not a medical device company, per se, although we work with quite a few. But we do a lot of documentation right at the output of engineering is documentation. And it always shocks me just how long it takes even to do our, you know, non FDA compliant documentation, just drawings for manufacturing, and user manuals and things like that. It takes it always takes longer than than we expect. And the other thing is most of the engineers don't really enjoy doing that work. Right? Yeah. So it's like, this thing that takes forever and no flesh. Nobody wants to do it. And and
Derek McKenney:no one wants to write SOP is all we write, but it has to be done. Yeah, yeah.
Aaron Moncur:Let's see, if you had no limitations on time, resources, money, what is the one thing that you do for your company that you think would have the most significant impact on achieving its business goals? So
Derek McKenney:on a on a business goal front, take away the budgetary requirements, I think we could really, you know, weave, in a little bit about our history in our 100 year old family, family owned business. So we've, you know, Puritan Medical Products has been around since 1919. And, you know, we've, we've morphed and changed and evolved over the years, but to really get to get us to the next level. Yeah, budgetary constriction constraints removed, it's really diving into the automation piece of the business. And also, you know, building, being able to build out a much larger team to support that transition. Again, we have a lot of customized products. And that takes a lot of customization and being able to integrate that and more into a more flexible automation platforms that can address those needs, and would have a significant impact on not only our ability, you know, to meet customer needs, but also the performance of the business and accelerating that, you know,
Aaron Moncur:that that's really interesting. And I think there's a ton of truth in what you're saying. We're also in the automation space. And that's something we hear from our customers all the time is, we need to implement automation. But it's so expensive to implement automation, like how do you make it more flexible so that you can not only use it for this one purpose, but it can be repurposed? Do you want to expand the line or you want to pivot the line to do something a little bit different? How do you make the automation such that it can accommodate all of these different requests?
Derek McKenney:It fits the fine line of trying to be a custom manufacturer, a high volume manufacturer, right? It's only only so far, you can go one direction, but it's a space that requires an extensive budget.
Aaron Moncur:Yeah. Well, how do you see the future of medical devices changing in the US over the next five years or so? On
Derek McKenney:our front, I really, you know, as I kind of touched on a little bit earlier, I see him moving to the at home testing, which means making more compact devices. And you know, this year, for the first time, we really saw a large market presence in the three inch, you know, a three inch collection device where the standard has been historically for many, many years, a six inch collection device. And a lot of that has to do with you know, moving to a retail shelf, right, where, you know, space is a premium. So everything is you know, moving towards a little bit smaller footprint, but also being tailored to very, very efficient collection and release properties. So we're seeing more push towards flocked tipped applicators, as opposed to traditional spun fiber, which is the the historical Q tip. So that you know, and we have, you know, several patented technologies out there for specimen collection that do this very well. And I think them as the market moves that way again, it is it's really about having something that's very effective that collection of release and is also very compact. You know, the the days of having a large kit at the doctor's office are probably coming to an end soon. So it's it's that retail space that will be driving it. Yeah.
Aaron Moncur:All right. What are Are some of the traits or habits or behaviors that you've seen in the most successful engineers? And if it's a different answer, also in the most successful engineering teams, so
Derek McKenney:on the, for the engineer specific section, I think one thing is the ability, and it isn't something that you're at least I learned in school, or that I've had a lot of thumb engineers that have come through have is the ability to identify the problem to solve. And, you know, you're presented throughout undergrad with all of these problems, which you can solve and get a solution for, and that's fine. But once you're thrust into an engineering position, the problem itself may not be apparent, I mean, the Ask may be substantially either substantial analysis between that ask and an actual problem. So having the structured problem solving skills to break down, and you don't want to ask like, hey, increase efficiency, 10%, or decrease waste by percent, to be able to take that. And that is a stretch, for short ask of a young engineer, but to take that in, then actually be able to break it down into something actionable, and then identified value out of those different problems that are identified. That's, that's something that I don't think it's very much emphasis, you know, it being in a manufacturing where we, I don't see a lot of younger engineers that are coming right out of school with, you know, what, say, a Six Sigma class, or maybe some lean training where you just, it's a little bit different thought process, it's not so much about the solution, as it is, what is the problem I'm trying to solve, and that's often, you know, that's a gap that takes some time and experience, you know, that's another piece of, you know, in the manufacturing world, that's the key is, is really digging in, and getting some of that structured problem solving experience. And it's something that I haven't seen out of the gate. And I think it's just a lot of what's the curriculum is structured around, again, very specific subjects and first principles which are necessary, but again, they have to be applied effectively. Yeah. And for an engineering team, I would say that the that the big thing that I see right now, with my team on the email that we have to work with, is making sure that we're properly leveraging everyone's strengths. And it's, it's very easy to, you know, again, when you have a team, and everyone is leveraging their strengths. It's very efficient. And not to say that, you know, there isn't time for growth and development. But that has to be managed, and making sure that, you know, development of team members is managed as part of the project is an area where, you know, again, with a lot of our expansion efforts, we had small group of people moving very quickly, with very little time, it was very important that we spent time learning only what was absolutely critical to learn. And I think that really goes back to having a team where the strengths and the weaknesses are known, and everyone is transparent about it. So you really need transparency in the team to get to that point, and you need a team that trust each other. And that can't be it can't be any, any boundaries, right? It has to be very cohesive. And I think, you know, that comes that comes in time, but it you know, it starts with trust, and it starts with good communication. And, you know, some conflict so that we know that those, you know, if we all leave a little bit a little bit disgruntled and where I think we know that we got to the place we needed to be and, and, you know, again, all part of building a good team. But I think that together, again, identifying strengths and weaknesses through that process is definitely that doesn't happen. It can be, it can be hard, regardless of technical skills can be hard to move. Yeah.
Aaron Moncur:Well, just one more question. And then we'll wrap things up here, specifically within the context of your role as an engineer, what is one thing that frustrates you And conversely, one thing that brings you joy?
Derek McKenney:So one of the most frustrating things for me as an engineer, is the is kind of the the the open ended solution and it you know, I think it's The black and white nature of engineering, but getting to a point where the project concludes, but you know, the work, the engineering work, you know, they're in it's some of that gap, some of that gap, right? But it's just, it's, it's where it's where it was, it's acceptable, right? It's acceptable. But it just, it wasn't where maybe I, as the engineer wanted to take, it just didn't get to that next level, that just feeling of, you know, just a little more time, and it would have been, you know, it would have been that much better. And I think that, that's always frustrating, especially with improvement projects is that and maybe it's, you know, maybe it's a little bit in the nature of improvement. I mean, there's always the next project, but it does get frustrating. But, but what really brings me the most joy is when a, and it goes back to the team environment. So I mean, I'm all about the people. But it's being able to be part of a group, you know, a group of talented people who are committed, and being able to, on kind of the opposite side of that point, achieve an accomplishment as a team, right? Get overcome the challenges, right? That's it. It's not even about the accomplishment itself. But it's the ability to persevere, work together and overcome the challenges that is so rewarding. To see that come together. And to be part of something. There's, there's no feeling like it. It's something that I think, you know, in a in a group based engineering team, you know, where you can't, and for me, that, you know, there's nothing better, there's nothing better. So it's, it's always fun. It's always a blast to be, you know, solving problems. It's what I love about engineering.
Aaron Moncur:I couldn't agree with you more, I just doing hard things with people you care about that is one of the greatest sources of joy in life, in my opinion. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Derek, thank you so much for joining me today. And in sharing all of your insight and experience with the listeners here at the podcast. How can people get in touch with you?
Derek McKenney:I saw I'm on LinkedIn, you can feel free to look me up Derek McKenney period and medical products. And we'll we'll connect and we'll trap. Awesome.
Aaron Moncur:Thank you so much again, Derek.
Derek McKenney:Awesome. Thank you. It's my pleasure.
Aaron Moncur:I'm Aaron Moncur, founder of pipeline design, and engineering. If you like what you heard today, please share the episode. To learn how your team can leverage our team's expertise developing turnkey equipment, custom fixtures and automated machines and with product design, visit us at Team pipeline.us. Thanks for listening